Microsoft Access Team Blog

This is what I'd like to share with you. I've asked Ken Getz about A2007 Developer's Handbook:

Dear Mr. Getz,  I'd like to ask you if there's any chance of getting Access 2007 Enterprise Developer's Handbook soon. Thank you very much for your time in advance.

The answer has arrived yesterday, July 8th 2008:

Hi. Thanks but Iʼm afraid it will not happen. We have all moved on to other interests, and thereʼs really not a market for an Access Developer book like there once was. Sorry... --- Ken

And here's Paul Litwins response to my e-mail:

We had been talking with the publisher about doing a 2007 version but they decided it was not a project they wished to do. Thus, I think the 2002 version will be the last of the Access Developer's Handbook.

Sorry.

Paul

That's too bad about the ADH 2007; but I'm not at all surprised that those folks have moved on. Access is in fact a viable development platform, though Microsoft does not treat it as such. The news that A2007 had a major dev team working on it was a real thrill a couple years ago; but with ribbons and so forth, you took it in entirely the wrong direction. Yes I read that post about Office 2007 being designed according to some statistical principles, but it still sucks. A company a huge as Microsoft couldn't spring the resources to at least not ruin the product for developers? It's pretty awful, if you're one of the many (though statistically unimportant) Access developers.

Will someone respond to the prev post about Access 2007 ribbons? That thread was closed so fast. The Sage application looks very much like a customization of Outlook, not Access, but if it is Access, tell us about the outlooks style nav bar and the treeview. The ActiveX treeview was fairly broken in prev versions of the developers toolkit, and it's hard to imagine a vb6 era control like that working any better in A2007.

For the screen shots, it looks like a treeveiw. I have no idea as to why you are saying the treeview is broken? Last time I looked, both a2003, and 2007 runtime included the treeview control by default. And the treeview has been an officially supported control in ms-access for what, at least the last 5 versions.

You might want to expand on how the treeview is broken? Better yet, why not try using the newsgroups to ask your question(s) about the problems you are having with the treeview. I answer posts every day in the newsgroups, and I not seen ANY significant number (if any) posts about problems with using the treeview in ms-access.

As for lack of direction and no new developer features? Are you sure you talking about ms-access?

We asked for years (near top request) to have pdf ability added to ms-access, and now we have it (is that not for developers?).

Web pages, vb.net, and most modern development platforms allow re-sizing (anchoring) of controls. In access 2007 we got this resizing in anchoring of controls ( A huge developer feature that puts access forms on par with other modern development systems today).

For years I’ve answered and seen posts in the newsgroups about people asking for a built in calendar control when you click on a date field. We now have this feature, and again I fail to see how this is not a feature for developers?

Another common request feature is buttons that have graphics and text (about time!!!). Once again, this is a feature really for developers. (and, we also have a transpart buttons now tool...again, huge nice new feature)

The report writer has not been changed in what 14, or more years? The new report layout and stacked controls in access 2007 is an AMAZING leap forward in terms of developer productivity for laying out reports. As a developer, once you start using the stacked controls and new layout features of the report writer, you’ll never go back to an older version of access. Once again I fail to see how this is not a feature really oriented towards developers?

We also now can design a form, and specify (save) that form as the default template. This is an another amazing developer feature that saves LOTS of time, and furthermore this template feature allows you make your application have a far more consistent look from form to form with far greater less effort than before.

Forms and reports can now have alternating color bands, again a common request, and something that is developers who had to come up with all kinds of kluge’s to accomplish what is very common in the rest of the industry. (again I fail to see how this is not a new feature that developers can use)

We now have a new form type (split) which allows you to create a nice navigation form with virtually no code (and, this is a common style of interface use by developers).

I’m going to stop here, but I could actually keep on writing for considerable amount of time talking about the LARGE number of new features in 2007 that help developers in a significant way.

In fact, in the history of access, I don’t recall any version that had anything CLOSE to the number of new features and things that help access developers in such a significant way as 2007 does.

Albert D. Kallal

Edmonton Alberta Canada

This is a post I made on msaccess hints and tips

(link at bottom of post)

I have an environment with Office 2003 Pro installed on users machines and need to deploy 2007 runtime. I made a package and deployed on 4 machines for testing and each has same issue. When opening an older CRM package developed in 2003 the setup wizard for Office launches and goes through configuring for first time use. Then when going back to my 2007 app the 2007 setup starts and configures. I have tried pointing to version of access needed for each in command line of shortcut thinking ambiguity was at fault. But no. I have Google'd this many ways and see others that have this issue but no responses that offer solutions just sharing of the pain. I thought I would start posts in various Access sites in hopes that this can be explained and more importantly a viable solution offered.

http://msaccesshintsandtips.ning.com/forum/topic/show?id=948619%3ATopic%3A13738&page=1&commentId=948619%3AComment%3A15744&x=1#948619Comment15744

I have to say; Neha tries to brush aside the issue of concurrently running multiple Access versions and I can point out where and why:

Neha says – “The workaround to have your .mdb filed open in Access full-blown versions, is to launch open Access (XP, 2003, whatever you may have) and let it register as “last run” version of access. Next time, your .mdb files will open with that version of Access instead.”

Well I say - That works EXACTLY ONE TIME. Then the next time a user runs my Access 2007 runtime app and goes to run the Access 2003 MDB file the STOOPID setup wizard runs again configuring the environment for first time use. I have spent hours trying to work around this and there is no known solution. Instead of telling us to just do this or that knowing that it is not a complete and working solution, I would prefer to have Neha or Albert just come out and say "Yup, we know the issue you are talking about, and you are correct, there is not a fix for it at this time."

Then, it would be nice to have a service pack come out or an update to the runtime that could isolate registry settings as to not conflict with other Versions of Access. I'm no expert but it appears as though the first time use wizard runs because the registry settings are in a shared hive that is not easily moved to another because of all of the commonality needed to be maintained with DAO, ODBC, ADO, VBA and such. Well...OK, then make the runtime version with its own versions of "shared files" and install them in the App path instead of Program Files\Common Files. Then you can write your own registry settings and not disturb the settings from other versions of Access.

Sound like a lot of work? Yeah. Would it be a welcome modification? Hell Yeah! I have been working with every single of Access since the 1.0 version back in the early 90's.

Being an Access developer has allowed me to raise my children, provide food and shelter, and several years ago, buy a house in Southern California. Am I grateful for the effort put into each version of Access to date? You bet I am. I owe a lot to MS, Litwin, Getz, FMS, and others. But come on folks...this is such a glaring mistake on your part (and I'm not just pointing a finger at Neha here, I mean all the PM’s for Access) for not cleaning up a HUGE mistake like this.

You can reach me at dgleason@ifa.com if you wish to rant and/or rave at me

Albert PDF has been available for years via ReportToPDF from Stephen Lebans.

Most of the tweaks are cosmetic and aimed more at corporate users. Most long term developers have worked out alternate ways to achieve the recent tweaks in their applications.

No one can deny Access 2007 is not aimed at professional developers.

The features you mention as advances are minor fripperies when weighed against the backward steps in the UI and in ACE.

With regards to Access Runtime distribution problems and issues, MS is dumb! same us water for gas issue, crisis first then solution

I am happy with VmWare .. VIVA Thinstall!

The future is virtual computing.. Access is still the KING RAD DB FRONTEND DEV'T TOOL! That's the trade off maybe?

Use POSTGRE or MYSQL Backend

With the Ribbon, the argument is not whether or not the ribbon had any uses.

The argument is that the Ribbon should be suppressable and the use of CUA compliant menus should remain available.

We have several complex systems developed in earlier versions of Access that have been successfully ported (fairly straightforwardly) from 1.1 to 2 to 97 and to 2003 however the 2007 port does not work without a lot of (unproductive - ineffective) work on the UI being required.

As we and no client we have can see this as an effective use of resources we shall stick to Access 2003 until such time as a future version offers a simple port.

Just allow the ribbon to be optional, turn it off by default when converting from an earlier version, or at least prompt for it to be disabled.

It is funny (strange) that we were always happy to purchase the runtime distribution licence until now - when it is free (and worth every penny) (vbg)

CUA is Common User Access and was defined in several SAA (Systems Architecture) documents at IBM based on the earlier work at Xerox and was adopted by Apple IBM and Microsoft in the early 80's.

Actually about paying for the runtime, the advantage was that some of users were not aware that some of our solutions were based on Microsoft Access, especially IBM users (vbg).

The "free" runtime contains a tagline.

Albert, it's fair to say you're list is a good one. But A2007 is not a good one for developers, by anyone I've talked to (except you now!). Mostly I ref myself of course. I admit I've not spent more time than I absolutely had to with the new version because in major respects is was obviously such a failure for my needs, my clients needs.

I used the treeview in several projects and found it to be pretty flakey. Weird refreshes, events misfiring and so forth. I've dialoged with MS about these issues, sent sample dbs that demo'd, and posted to the forums, no help to be found. Years ago now. I am not sure I tested with A2003, but since ActiveX tech is old and crusty for years now, by both entire MS and the Access team, I didn't expect it to be improved.

If anyone knows that Access 2003 support for ActiveX controls, esp the treeview, was improved over prev versions, please mention it.

I've used the sagekey scripts for years, because they do isolate the runtime install from retail installs. It sounds like Sagekey still has a place, if the new runtime continues to compete with retail installs for mdb etc files. I am curious about this aspect. From posts here it sounds like some of the nightmares live on, with setup wizards firing off etc. That's the kind of junk that makes Access tiring to try to work with; though it's still a gift of productivity.

I wonder if someone in the know could reply before this blog software closes down new comments. I've asked before but don't see replies.

Why do the blog comments get disabled so quickly?

Is the recent 'ribbon' Sage app really written with Access, and if so is that the regular vb6 era treeview, and what about the outlook style navigation piece?

Erwin can you say more about thinstall as a way of dealing with Access runtime conflicts? I've read of this before but wasn't able to put it together. Thinstall I was aware of for year and I was surprised to see they were bought by vmware.

I can think of at least one Deployed Access 2007 Runtime feature that would be a godsend for professional development:

AccessRuntimeWindowCompletelyhiddenFromUser = True

AccessRuntimeWindowAppearsWhenVistaTaskbarButtonClicked = False

I always deploy databases in .mde format from Acc 2003.

Garry

Garry: I'd also appreciate:

AccessThrowAwayAllBugsAndIssues (most wanted!!!)

AccessEnableOldDatabaseWindow

AccessCompletelyDisableNavigationPain

AccessCompletelyDisableTabs

AccessEnableClassicStyleToolbarsAndMenus

AccessHelpForWindowsAPI_Enabled

Albert D. Kalal: You are right that there are some improvements in Access. But I'd like to mention old bugs which don't seem to be fixed... ever... (?)

Clint C. has my e-mail with a document that lists some bugs & issues but I have no idea if any of them will be fixed in A2007 SP2.

BTW, I think I've discovered a new issue in Access 2007 reports' page header - auto resize doesn't perform as expected. I will have more about it soon...

A2007 report header AutoHeight doesn't change section's height. Neither it moves controls below the control with CanGrow set to Yes.

I at first rebelled at the Ribbon paradigm, but in working with Access 2007, I found it a more flexible wat to structure menus, but what I still find annoying is:

1. Hiding of legacy command bars in the Ribbon under the Add-Ins tab.

2. The way Ribbons are implemented by having the design functionality totally outside Access/Office.

3. The extreme difficulty of working with Ribbons.

4. The patchy provision of a design environment, and poor info on FACE IDS etc

5. Leaving it to third parties to develop an in-Office tool to build Ribbons: there is still not a really decent product available.

If Microsoft wanted to improve Access in important ways for developers, they'd make the runtime really workable (ie idependent of retail Access), but most importantly, get it together for working with SQL Server and other robust RDBMS...kind of like they started to do with Access Projects for A2000. That's what, TEN YEARS ago! Because they must have started working on Access Projects a couple of years before the release of A2000.

Albert I learned from your posting. But even if this release has some dev features, it lost more of those than it gained, and for the worlds most popular and productive db front end, it's a shameful performance by Microsoft. IMHO.

Albert,

I have learned from you in the past through user-groups and through reading your site. I noticed you are a very generous professional that is willing to share your hard earned knowledge and your talent with others and I respect that very much. All that notwithstanding, I wonder if you have some sort of personal investment in Access. In other words, are you part of the Access team, or plan to be? Or something in that nature that leads you to take such a stand as a fervent advocate of Access07? You sound more like a representative of the company then a knowledgeable customer. The reason I ask this is that you don’t seem to even slightly acknowledge the issues that have been raised by other developers. Is the question about the tree-view really so odd? Yes activeX has been around but is it a technology you would recommend? Is it easy to deploy an ActiveX control as part of an application as it is to deploy a text box or a combo box? Can you use the Access “Package and Deploy” to safely and easily include it in your application?

Its like a car company would offer a new version to the market, and customers would complain that you can’t take it to the road. The representative would say: “What are you talking about? We added a new steering system, a new dashboard, we have many new engine features that are top of the line..like this and that..”, and he will provide a nice list.

But the customer will say: “These are wonderful, but I can’t seem to take the car to the road. There is a problem with the wheels”. So the rep would continue to list some more wonderful new additions and features, ignoring the customer’s complaint.

In the real world this car would not be sold, unless it is the only car on the market, or unless it is sold as component of a bunch of other products. Access is one if a kind on the market, and many people (maybe most) have it installed as a component of Office.

I understand that there are many who did manage to get Access “on the road” so to speak, but I think these are the exceptions to the rule. You could connect this sort of car to a horse and then enjoy its wonderful new additions, but that would be missing the point wouldn’t it? Plus, you would need to be an expert with horses also.

To me it is like a discussion between two deaf parties. The dependencies are an issue, the compatibility with previous versions, the difficulty of deployment, the need for third party products, incomplete Package and Deploy feature. Etc. there is no need to list all the issues. I think if the Access team would think “complete and robust” instead of think “neat” all these issues would have been resolved by themselves.

I also don’t agree with the “end user’ argument. The ribbons did not make the life of end users easier. The real customers of Access are the developers. I contend that end users do not use Access. It is ridiculous that when developers complain they are told that they must understand that Access is not really for them, it is for ‘end users’.

Vladimir started this post sitting the response of Paul Litwin and Ken Getz with regard to their great books. From my personal experience, no other books come close. I wonder what they would have to say about these issues. Is their decision not to continue with the book a sort of statement about Access and about where it is going? I hope not.

Gilad

Golly, I did not think my post was “fervent” support.

My personal investment in access is no different then yours. I just thought it was unfair that people pointed out no new features for developers (and I gave a short list of features that are really nice). If no one points out the features then you get a group speak about no new features and that just not fair. That why I posted those features.

Strange that I suggested that the built in pdf feature is great. Then people suggested here that it is not a big deal because you can grab a 3rd party pdf solution. Well you can also grab a third party solution for installing also (sagekey). I seeing kind of a contradictory position here? I welcome the built in pdf ability and it is asked for a lot in the newsgroups.

The fact of a third party installer or pdf should not throw dish water on this being a useful addition. We had great pdf and installer solutions for a long time now but that don’t mean access should not get these features.

Albert D. Kallal

Edmonton Alberta Canada

>Is their decision not to continue with the book a sort of statement about Access and about where it is going? I hope not.

I don’t’ think so. Many auto magazines, and computer books magazine have gone by the way side because there is so much good information on-line.

People don’t have to purchase books anymore.   In the last 5 years, I seen a substantial increase in the number of blogs and web sites that has free code and examples for ms-access.

It could be for other reasons but I don’t see this as a characterizing that ms-access is not a developers tool anymore.

Albert D. Kallal

Edmonton Alberta Canada

>for working with SQL Server

This week I am deploying a multi-user application to be used in 3 cities at the same time. To accomplish this feat I am using the free on-line edition of office live (that is free SharePoint for those who don’t want to spring for it).  

To deploy this multi-user application we did not have to purchase a server, we did not have to setup sql server. We did not have to re-configure anyone’s corporate network or firewalls to allow incoming traffic. In fact, we do not have install ANY software or change hardware on the customers network or servers. With office live I now have a free in the cloud sever for ZERO costs. Why even bother with sql sever when I don’t even have to set one up now?

I am ecstatic that I can deploy software in 3 different cities for free without anyone purchasing hardware. My software just works

I am pitching this “anywhere” feature of my software to many of my clients that have 2-3 seat multi-user editions of my software. Some of my clients are going wireless in their office with laptops. Prior to 07, wireless file shares was a no no. Now not a problem!

Telling clients they can take their laptops on the road, home, hotels or anywhere is HUGE selling feature.

I can sign up for office live and build a on line server in less time for a customer then it takes me to write this post! The result is a free multi-user server system for the customer. And, did I mention NO red tape to get approval for hardware stuff from those clients?

New features of 07 is opening all kinds of doors in terms of solutions and flexibility that I now can offer to my customers. I guess I just see how these new features are helping me.

Albert D. Kallal

Edmonton, Alberta Canada

to Zup;

FINAL/ULTIMATE SOLUTION IN RT DISTRIBUTION:

- Thinstall Virtulization, Please visit www.thinstall.com, Package the ms access runtime with your finished access application and create a single EXE.

- Formula: Ms Access Runtime+MDE/ACCDE= Single EXE

Really great, I can even run my finish EXE in Ubuntu using Wine Emulation!

Although there are minor limitations I found in my finish mde/accde

when deployed using this tool but the remedy is very easy.

known minor problems so far:

1. shelling- resolve to running an external batch file

2. listview control click event-resolve to double click

3. report to or send object action to xls or doc. - resolve to manual

opening the output file.

4. Report Export to snaphot (.snp) -OK

5. Custom icon sometimes do not load in XP- VISTA OK.

I am also monitoring the backend mdb and accdb, so far no problems in

terms of data processing both standalone and shared (15 users).

I really wonder why? Ken Getz, Litwin,Gunderloy,Kallal, Tejpal and other MVP's do not share their knowlege about "Painless MS Access Runtime Distribution".

Maybe..maybe... maybe.....SAGEKEY has spies inside MS ACCESS TEAM.

Well, I have posted some of my inno scripts for installing the front end, and silent installs of the a2003 runtime. So, sure,  share much of my knowldge in this regards.

However, thininstall is most certainly a solution (as is the free VPC). I am very aware of this AMAZING thininstall technology. (I even played with the demo copy).

The problem is last time I looked a license was $5000. So, it is hardly an easy and affordable solution for most developers. If the pricing of thininstall has changed dramatic, then it MOST certainly is a solution that come down to earth for most of us developers.

So, no, not trying to throw dish water on thinstall, but it pricing makes it a non recommend solution right now.

Albert D. Kallal

Edmonton Alberta Canada

Albert, Software development tools technology and pricing is like a "WATER 4 GAS" Issue. Thinstall will be free sooner, when MS Access team will allow us to compile the end product into EXE like Rbase and VFP!

Virtualization is the future!! and thinstall lead the way in application level. VMWare+Thinstall=Cost Effective Solution.

This is really I think purely an eCommerce and political issue inside MS. I'm puzzled, are thinstall guys smarter than MS guys?

I've been following the issue of concurrently running multiple Access versions for a while now.  I can't say I've actually found any solution except purchasing 3rd party installers.  Erwin Leyes have been going on about Thinstall (Erwin, Thinstall is too E-X-P-E-N-S-I-V-E for most of us!).  I've seen people talking about Sagekey's MSI Wizard.  Would this not have been the solution to Dan Gleason's problem? Albert, can you tell me about "VPC" you're referring to?

erwin leyes: "Maybe..maybe... maybe.....SAGEKEY has spies inside MS ACCESS TEAM."

It seems you are right... unfortunatelly... :-(

MammAfrica;

Other smart solution is VMWARE only or MS Virtual PC, Run your application in a virtualized environment. Just add some instruction to your User/client. I also tried this solution and again you can save but its not really smart like compiled thinstall apps wherein you just copy and paste your finish EXE and can run even in usb or Linux OS using Wine Emulation.

"If you really want the smart solution then there are so many solutions or ideas. But If you dont want, then there are also many reasons".

VIVA Postgre or MySQL as Ms Access Backend!!

I totally agree with the post that Erwin pointing out thininstall might come down in the future does absolute NOTHING for us here.

Flying cars might become affordable in the future too, but now it just useless information. Suggesting some technologies like thininstall is great for this discussion, but stating that everyone else is dumb or can’t adopt these ideas is not nice at all, and it becomes just a case of arrogance on your part.

Albert;

Albert Kallal: but stating that everyone else is dumb or can’t adopt these ideas is not nice at all,

--Hey Man! WATER4GAS Again?

By the way, what is your ultimate advice for ACCESS developer regrading Runtime Deployment Issues as of this time? Inno? Sagekey? Half Cooked Solution and not applicable in real Combat!

Please share your true talent regarding deployment issue!

POST IT HERE NOW, SO..SO..SO MANY NEED YOUR HELP!

> Albert, can you tell me about "VPC" you're referring to?

VPC is a free virtual download from MS that allows you to run “multiple” copies of an os (I am running Vista on VPC on my laptop for example).  I also have windows 3.1, 98 se, windows 2003, and a bunch more that can all run on my laptop. Memory permitting, I can run as many as them at the same time. One can even network those imaginary computers. I even setup a server for testing of SharePoint,  So, VPC is your ticket for testing.

VPC is a possible solution to run multiple versions of MS access, but VPC requires you to install a whole operating system.  Since you have to install a whole operating system, then it not a very lightweight solution for deploying ms-access on many computers.

For development purposes, VPC is a must have item in your tool box. VPC allows you to create throwaway virtual pc’s that you can use for testing of your installs.

So I don’t recommend VPC for installing on machines, but it is an must have for developers.

Albert D. Kallal

Edmonton Alberta Canada

> Please share your true talent regarding deployment issue!

Again, there is not a need for you to be so condescending here. Lighten up a bit, ok?

Ms-access has always been part of office, and it never really was designed for independent installs.

There no secret fix here. However, the Sagekey solution is what I would suggest at this time and it really is quite a good solution.

Albert;

"If you really want the smart solution then there are so many solutions or ideas. But If you dont want, then there are also many reasons".

VIVA Postgre or MySQL as Ms Access Backend!!

Albert Kalal: MS says that Access is a professional solution. They might be right. But it's a solution with a non-professional and buggy PDW. So, in the end, is this professional?

SageKey = professional tool for MS Access

MS = ?

Thank you Albert.  Something else that's been bothering me... you think Erwin might perhaps have a personal investment in Thinstall?  

>MySql as a acces backend.

Sure, that is a great solution. I rather think my free SharePoint idea is even better since then you don’t have to purchase a computer and then setup a “sql” server on it.

Why purchase a whole computer and spend all that time installing MySql when you can use office live for free? The ability to use free SharePoint allows my applications to become multi-user over the internet in different locations without having to setup a server. This sharepoint is an amazing new feature that opens up a lot of doors for me as a developer.

However, it really depends on your needs. If you don’t need a separate new server, or you are willing to spend the time to setup a server and install the software then there is quite a few free sql servers available. Those choices range from the Express editions of sql server right on down to your suggesting of  Postgres.

All of these server data engines work well with ms-access, and this just means we continue to have more and more choices as developers on how we going to use ms-access with a back end data system.

Being able to use Postgres or SharePoint shows that ms-access continues to become more flexible as a developers tool.

Albert D. Kallal

To MammAfrica;

MammAfrica: Something else that's been bothering me... you think Erwin might perhaps have a personal investment in Thinstall?  

I don't have stake in VMWare/Thinstall. Me and my clients are very happy with thinstall deployment strategy. It's really a ALL-IN-ONE solution in deployment specially in ms access runtime. Which wasn't solved by MS til this moment in time.

Even SAP use the tool, US Armed Forces, GE and ever expanding.

I started to develop in delphi for one reason; deployment Issue. But then I found thinstall, so goodbye delphi. I can now distribute my finish product in a single stand alone EXE much more than delphi can.

This is a true confession and sharing my friend about Access runtime deployment problems.

albert;

Ken Getz, Litwin,Gunderloy abandoned ACCESS? why?

>Me and my clients are very happy with thinstall deployment strategy.

Sure, but that is not a affordable solution for most people here. Likely in your situation you were able to justify using such an expensive tool. And your likely distributing lots of copies and thus once again it not really an expensive solution in your case.

>abandoned ACCESS? why?

I really have no idea, but then why don’t you go ask them? How could I know? However, if you in the habit of such questions, then whey did you drop Delphi?  Why do some people drop Java these days?  Anyway I think these types of questions are starting to make this post way off topic…

Albert D. Kallal

erwin leyes:

"albert;

Ken Getz, Litwin,Gunderloy abandoned ACCESS? why?"

See the first posts of mine in this thread.

Thanks Vladimir

Albert Kallal: The ability to use free SharePoint allows my applications to become multi-user over the internet in different locations without having to setup a server. This sharepoint is an amazing new feature that opens up a lot of doors for me as a developer.

Albert is not you starting to make this post way off topic- by injecting sharepoint? Our issue here is painless deployment of access runtime.

ALBERT is Sharepoint a Relational DBMS? or just a storage? like yahoo mail?

---performance issues with SharePoint Lists that have over 2000 rows.

Unfortunately, so far SharePoint's List features have not been robust enough to develop true database applications. Fundamental features that application developers have come to expect in a relational database management system have been absent so far in SharePoint Lists due to a layer of architecture between SharePoint Lists and the underlying DBMS

Let's face it Access 2007 makes it "appear" easier to use to the users.

It gets in the way of long term developers and their existing applications.

Sharepoint is part of the non-relational dumbing down that Access and its complex data type support.

Access 2003 is the "last" pro version at the moment.

craig please clarify this>>Access 2003 is the "last" pro version at the moment.

Well by pro I mean the last one capable of industry standard interface and the last one without an advert on the runtime.

All versions prior to 2007 were CUA compliant and by using the runtime you could completely disguise the Access origins.

And by at the moment I mean until a version is released that allows at least CUA compliance by suppressing the ribbon and restoring the menus.

I can live with the tagline on the runtime "powered by Microsoft Access" on most applications but not all.

Remember CUA Compliance? Microsoft Doesn't:

http://www.sdtimes.com/content/article.aspx?ArticleID=29949

Hey, before this tome gets closed (a week is too short) will someone in the know please deal with my repeated request about the recent ribbon thread app by Sage? Is it outlook, or Access, and if Access, what controls are used? The old treeview? What's the outlook style nav panel?

The major problem with Access for devs is that the Access team works for Microsoft...and Microsoft as huge company with many offerings does not regard Access as a legit dev tool; never has beyond maybe the early days of Access. Imagine if Access was owned by a distinct firm that continued the excellent start. Instead it's been laying fallow.

Gunderloy dropped Access because it was boring and going nowhere, moved to .net. A year or more ago he dropped Microsoft completely and moved to rails...because as a dev he got fed up with MS' approach. Getz and the rest just got bored with Access and obviously the action was elsewhere. Access has been left out of the stream for like ten years...but as we know it's still a great productivity solution, for some projects, at least through A2003.

Thanks Craig.

Zup, I second emotion.

I have also Flex and DBACentral Builder 2 in my arsenal if in case. Ya, that's very true. If access was given true attention, surely only a dozen embraces .net, because 95 percent of the softdev are datacentric.

zup said on July 11, 2008 10:49 AM: ...

Yes, it seems to a treeview control. I was playing some games with TW control in VB6 a while ago and it's not very easy to use. But it can make some ideas much simpler to implement.

>performance issues with SharePoint Lists that have over 2000 rows.

Actually, I am testing a form right now with 60,000 rows, and the response time to bring up one record is well under one second. I find the speed/response time identical in this case as a linked table to sql server.  And, I testing this on a wireless connection.

Remember, the SharePoint lists are based on sql server engine behind the scenes anyway. Furthermore lists in a2007 use replication to achieve their performance. So, the whole table is local cached, and ONLY updates to records shuffle back and forth.  It works very well. (and, with Intermittent connections that are flaky it works BETTER then linked talbes to sql server).

Furthermore you can even allow users to go “off line” and when they get back to a internet connection, then replication occurs. This is quite amazing since you not need to setup replication or even know how it works!!

I am not suggesting that SharePoint lists are going to be suitable for large scale data processing or large tables.  However for the vast majority of my business applications, the speed and capacity of the SharePoint lists are more then adequate for most of my applications.

>Albert is not you starting to make this post way off topic- by injecting sharepoint

Atually you suggested MySql here. And you suggested Postgres. I was responding to that post.  Now likely you brought up MySql etc because I brought up SharePoint. I had originally mentioned SharePoint because some here were saying that there is no new features in a2007. I totally disagreed and thus pointed out that SharePoint is a really nice feature that is opening doors for my applications as a developer.

If you going to play the on/off topic back at me then try better to apply it to yourself.

Albert D. Kallal

Edmonton, Alberta Canada

>Me and my clients are very happy with thinstall deployment strategy

Just out of curiosity, what was the business model do you have to justify the expense of thinstall?

Do you have a very high priced product and low volume sales, or do have a very low priced product and you make up the cost on volume? Do you have a demo of your product using Thinstall for us to see?

Albert D. Kallal

Edmonton Alberta Canada

Albert;

"If you really want thinstall solution then there are so many ways or ideas. But If you dont want, then there are also many reasons".

Since canada is enjoying a very high economy due to sand oil, I don't believe you and your clients cant afford to buy thinstall.

You can download thinstall and create it for yourself. You can do that because you are smart.

I will upload sample video/demo sooner in msaccesshintsandtips.ning.com. Watch it my friend.

Well, it been more then a year since I looked at thinstall. You had mentioned that costs have come down for this software So, I was just curious as to how by how much.

I don’t understand what you mean by “then there are so many ways or ideas”.  

I am just simply asking if your justification for thinstall is a very high priced software package (but low volume), or are you selling a low cost product using thinstall (but with high volume). Either type of business model can justify the high cost of thinstall. I guess I not spend the time to look at the current costs for thinstall and was just wondering if there is some kind of deal for “per license” or some type of volume pricing that would make it an affordable solution as opposed to a one time high cost?

I assumed you suggested thinstall because it been well worth it for you (otherwise, I not understanding your point here).  I am just not knowledgeable about it’s current pricing. Would you purchase thinstall again, or would you have considered something like Sagekey, or a if the PW from Microsoft was better? Perhaps it was just that “single” .exe feature that sold you? (since sagekey, or the PW do nothing close to that feature).  In other words, why improve the PW from microsoft if people will not use it anyway?

Albert D. Kallal

Edmonton Alberta Canada

We have small volume but big and fat clients willing to spend. They are not after of half cooked solution. They really want cost effective and for them thinstall is the answer!

We do big customized projects using most ms access as a frontEnd. We can't argue here, ms access is the KING RAD for DB frontends. We even push jet to 20 users University enrollment system with almost 3000 students and for almost 4 years.No problema Amego!

Why don't you visit www.thinstall.com, There is a complete data you can see regarding pricing and other distribution issues.

virtualization is the future! wouldn't it be nice to see, that your finish ms access app is running in Virtual World without any conflicts and very easy for the client/users to install? A.K.A Cut&Paste! and so many other benefits. Go to thinstall NOW!

That sounds really interesting Erwin. (so, lower volume, but higher cost…thanks for that answer, that exactly what I was asking about).

So, your goal is simply deployments with a min of fuss, and you can justify the higher costs.  Not all of us are in that position.

And, yes, I am going to check out their web site  and see what their pricing is these days, perhaps they come down as you mentioned.

Albert D. Kallal

Edmonton, Alberta Canada

> Go to thinstall NOW!

Ouch, I just checked their pricing, and it looks like it gone up! Perhaps because they were purchased by vmware?

50 client installs retails at $8,187 (3 year support) So, that works out to $163 dollars per install.

Unfortunately, they don’t sell packages with less then $50 licenses at a time. I think that is a big mistake on their part. Why should they care how many licenses you buy at one time. As long as they are getting their $150 or so per install, why should they care?

I have no idea why they force the purchase of 50 licenses at one time?  So, I suppose for some types of software, it makes sense, but other types it is quite expensive due to their pricing model right now. I wish they were more flexible in this regards..

Albert D. Kallal

EdmontonAlberta Canada

wao, this blog was difficult to read.

I understand clint now, when they close the post.

This was supposed to be about runtime, and it has a lot of topics to be discussed, a lot of them very interesting by the way.

There is only one thing that i really misses from old access 2003 and before, is the ability to export access reports to excel.

Certainly we can create code to do such feature, and we can do the groupings and all that stuff, but this was all automatic, now we need to re-do more than 200 reports to provide a feature that was there all the time.

This is the only thing that I’m missing.

As a professional day to day access developer, who provides support to access apps i can certainly point some new features and enhancements, like.

I love the new resize of controls, but we will need a table layout panel in a way where controls do not grow in top of others.

A new conditional format like excel.

And i can make the list very big, but here is not the topic.

Anyway, go ahead clint and zac, make access the vry best office tool, please remember us the access / sql developers.

Thanks

Edwin Blancovitch:

I'm affraid Zac has left MS Access team a while ago...

Zac Woodall moving on...

01 March 08 12:03 AM

I'm sure you've all noticed that I've been less than active on the blog lately.  I'm sorry for the lull, and the reason is that change is afoot. After 7.5 years working on the data team here in Office I've decided to make a change.  Monday 3/3 I'm starting a new role with the Virtual Earth team.

Meaning no next generation tech design will be implemented in Access 14?

It's great, they can't really fix the RT issue? but they divert to Access/GIS technology.

VIVA Access! MS Release it to open source if you can't fix it?

First, its good to see the developers finely standing up to Microsoft on this.  Early on when A2007 was released, I felt so much like a lone ranger posting all the things the developers are posting here, that I finally gave up on posting.

Albert, I read your posts, and to be honest, let me tell you what you describe as "for developers" is very lacking.

1) I turn off the Data control for all dates (God only knows, if I miss on) because it is probably one of the most graphically bad designs of a pull-down date control Ive ever seen.  

2) I have yet to get the PDF feature to work.  Even the new printer driver for the microsoft document doesn't work.  I gave up.  So this is also useless

3) I played with split forms.  I found it to be GUI Crappy.  Still won't use it, for its lack of ability to validate and place custom actions and controls.  No Events appropriate to handle actions we need.

4) I spend MORE time in the Scrolling interface Scrolling for my objects now.  If Im working on a module, and I need to open a table,  I have to scroll and scroll and scroll and scroll to get to the table.  I used to "click a tab, and maybe scroll to the right once.  the new UI is NOT developer friendly.  It wastes SO MUCH OF MY TIME.

5) when I migrated my MDB to an ACCDB, the first thing I had to do for EVERY FORM was add a insideheight = 1440 * x (X representing the form height) and insidewidth = 1440 * X (X representing the form width) to EVERYONE of our forms.  Just so they didn't open in a box that was 100pips x 100pips.   times about 80 forms, that was a waste of time.

6) Things that worked in MDB stopped working, Had to recode it.  

7) SP1 comes out to fix some problems, and microsoft makes it to where the runtime sp1 doesn't overwrite the current runtime install, thus we have to have our end users UNINSTALL runtime before they can install our solution.  This added a bunch of support time for those that don't know how to uninstall.

I, like you, can go on and on on how access has moved away from developer solution.  

We recently bought RealBasic 2008.  We are in the process of dumping the Microsoft Access 2007 solution we have had for so many years, that worked well for so many years and re-writing using a NON-Microsoft product.  

We could have gone with vb.net, however the decision was made that putting our faith in Microsoft continually is what causes these headaches.  Microsoft DOES NOT listen to the development community. Microsoft has its own agenda, one has to question if taking over the computing world is not the primary agenda.  

I think you will see more and more, people shying away from Microsoft Product Solutions simply to keep from depending upon your company.

It truly is a sad thing.  Cause you have a leading product that is an Awesome RAD tool used by developers and you drive it into the ground.  You justify it by indicating "but you asked us for these features" - We may ask for alternate color rows, or calendar controls, etc.  But these are OPTIONS, not requirements.

But changing the toolset has not made us more productive.  It has hindered our productivity.  I can't tell you how much time I waste on doing things such as "Minimize and then maximize the VB Editor just to do a find replace"  or "where in the ribbon did they put this?" You guys just don't get it.

Yes,

I'm seriously considering using Realbasic, too.

It seems to be the next obvious choice for development.

Garry

Dear David and Gary,

It so sad,  haven't migrate all my large and complex projects to access 2007.They are happy running in a single EXE using thinstall. Like yours, There are so many problems, its almost the same fate experienced by vb6 to vb.net.

MS is dumb, they justify power users and always diverting the whole issue to sharepoint list. Developers is not the priority in ms access team based on reality.

Yes, realbasic is a good contender but the only issue is the report writer. there is gambas too. I would like to share with you DBACentral builder 2, the report writer is great and it support pascal,C++,Javascript and vbscript as programming tool. Its in beta now and the protoype is almost equal to access. It has a native support to MYSQL.

We will wait for access 14, I hope it is not a repacked access 12.

erwin

MS Access 14?

http://www.volny.cz/cvajniga/MSAccess14.doc

This is a document that I sent to Clint Covington a while ago.

DOC, 10 pages, 1 455 616 B

Enjoy... ?

>I turn off the Data control for all dates (God only knows, if I miss on) because it is probably one of the most graphically bad designs of a pull-down date control Ive ever seen.  

Virtually everyone I know using it loves it. It means we don’t have to resort to using an activeX control.  I really am at a loss as to why you think it poor feature?  This feature simply eliminates the need for 3rd party controls, or even restoring to activex controls.

> I have yet to get the PDF feature to work.

So you mean that because you having a problem with pdf’s, the adding of pdf’s to access is a bad idea? That is just such silly logic here. There is not a developer on the planet that I talked to who told me that adding pdf ability to ms-access is a bad idea. You stand alone, very alone in this view. Now, if your having some problem with the feature, then you have 100% my sympathy and I hope the problem can be solved. However, to stand here and  throw bath water on the “idea” of adding pdf ability to ms-access not fair at all.

> I played with split forms. Still won't use it, for its lack of ability to validate and place custom actions and controls.  

You have to tell what you mean by the above? I think it a great ui and you often see it in applications. I have no idea what you mean about validation or custom actions? If you add any event code to a control on the form side, then that SAME event code will run/fire if you edit on the datasheet side. So, your perfectly able to add code to the SAME SET OF events that you ALWAYS been able to.  I suppose if your doing something out the ordinary then you can just fall back on using a form+sub-form. Perhaps you expand on what the problem here is, but I am really falling to grasp what you talking about?

>4) I spend MORE time in the Scrolling interface Scrolling for my objects now.  If Im working on a module, and I need to open a table,  I

The first afternoon I spent working on a large application, I also did not like the new UI. Now I love it. You simply need to change your approach a bit to take ADVANTAGE of the new navigation system.

The old way, you had to click on a  tab, and then scoll/move though the list.

The new way: (make sure you enabled the search option in the navigation pane…right –click to do this – you only need to do this once).

To bring up a form with the new system, you click on forms section (you had to click on the forms tab before). Now in the search box type simply type in the first few chars of the object your looking for. For example, I have medium sized application with 160 forms. I always categorized my forms with some type of prefix. For example I have about 12 forms for user interface stuff. So, they are all prefixed with GUI (eg: GuiInvoicePrint, GuiMail etc). So, to bring up a list and work JUST with those 12 forms simply type in GUI in the search bar. Presto!!, I now have a NICE SIMPLE list of 12 forms that starts with GUI.

Hold on to your pants, because now if you drop down the reports list, you ALSO get the list that starts with GUI. In other words, you can now display the two lists of related objects together (and, this even more super for queries).

Now you reports, forms and quires and be filtered together as a group. To say this is not cool is an understatement. Note that the up/down arrow keys (and, also left/right arrow keys expand/collapses the nav pane nodes EXACTLY like they do with a a tree view control)  (I assuming you like using keyboard shortcuts like me).  In fact, the nav pane really is a treeview control if you think about it, but with the addition of a that search option.

Note that the search is NOT limited to the prevfix. So if you type in invoice, then you get all forms/reports/queries with invoice keyword anywhere in the name (how cool is that!!!). So, you can now with GREAT ease bring up a set of related forms/reports/query that have invoice in them.

When you scroll through the list with arrow keys, simply hit control-enter to bring up that form in design mode. (and hit ctrl-w to save, and you right back to the nav pane).

The new filtering on the nav pane is the KEY to making it work for you, not against you.

I think your main problem with scrolling is that your trying to do things the old slow way, and you now have a better way to filter and group things. You just have to spend a bit of time to learn it.

I like to work with small groups of things, and you look at the trend in .net or most development systems, you will see the same trend.

> I, like you, can go on and on on how access has moved away from developer solution.  

I guess we see this different. You telling me because you had a problem with the pdf, or don’t like the UI for the new built in calendar control that this invalids these features as welcome additions by developers?

I guess I disagree with your view on this.  I want developer features also since that is what I use the product for. The list I gave was by no means extensive.

The problem here is we only hearing from people that have complaints.  I am only posting here to give some balance, since the ones that like things are not saying anything at all here because they are happy.

You can tell me you don’t like some of these new features, but to come here and tell me there nothing new for developers is unfair.

If I don’t say anything then you have a bunch of people coming here and going, yup, nothing new here…and then everyone else repeats that.

Heck, I just stumbled into the fact that reports now have a on-load feature in addition to on-open…

>You have to tell what you mean by the above? I think it a great ui and you often see it in applications.

Specifically, my experience is access likes to updated data records prior to validation of the data.  I like to validate data before ever issuing a write to the DB.  

The Object model of validating a field AT ENTRY OF THAT FIELD does not always lend itself to the dataset itself, nor validation of the field on "after update".

I allow my users to enter all the data, then validate.  then they get one erorr message, NOT ONE ERROR MESSAGE EVERY TIME THEY LEAVE A FIELD.

for this reason, I do not like the datasheet view.  I think its functionality is worthless since it requires validation on a field by field level vs. record level.  

In Object oriented model, yes, field by field is correct, however object oriented is not always the best way to approach a good user interface.  Users don't want to be "bothered" everytime they leave a field.  

They want to bothered once, fix what they messed up and be done.

So the split form idea is useless in my opinion from a design standpoint since it is object oriented validation with encapsulates the validation code with the field itself and thus creating more code work to provide the validations as well as an unfriendly user experience.

I have read your input on the nav pane.  Grouping items such as table with form with report with query, etc. only works if all those items have a key foundation.

I have many many popup modals to accomplish various tasks that are NOT tied to a query, table, etc.  But logically they do belong to a group of objects.  I have played with the different forms of grouping items, and I fail to see the advantage.

I can see an advantage in Simple form on top of table type of designs, but you get into the complexities of the designs we have, it simply doesn't benefit, it hinders

Either way, you STILL HAVE TO scroll, or use the filter, but I don't always remember the title of the form, or table, or report to even use the filter, I need to see the name of the object, which means I need to see all my objects together.  So when Im working on a modules and I need to review a table, no matter how I have things grouped, I still end up scrolling more than necessary.

Its still extremly cumbersome.  Fine if it works for you.  GREAT, Im very pleased.  But it doesn't work for everyone, and having a nav pane option would have been nice.

Example:  Dreamweaver, has a Designer View, Coder view, etc.  THEY DIDN'T GET RID OF LEGACY VIEWS, they added and allowed the developer to choose which tool worked best for them.

Microsoft Access team could have done the same thing, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Same with the ribbon, Microsoft access team could have allowed legacy menus, or ribbons.  Again, we wouldn't be having this conversation.  

As to the calendar feature.  You can't honestly tell me that you would rather use what they built instead of an activex.  Why is using an activex so hard anyways?  Its super simple.  You simply add it to the form, and your done.  Its no more complicated than adding any other control.

I read that we had the calendar control and I was excited over it.  I thought,  Thats an awesome developer enhancement.  THEN I USED IT, and I was appalled.  Its graphically horrible.  It doesn't line up with the field.  You have an obtrusive icon to the right of the field,  traditionally, its part of the field.  

As to PDF's  OMG I NEED IT SO BAD, you have no clue how bad I need it.  But its not a developer tool, if it don't work.  Its just extra code added to the Microsoft Access and its useless.  I HAVE SUCH A MAJOR NEED TO GENERATE PDF, as a matter of fact, that is the one sole reason I upgraded to the A2007, was for PDF cause my users have been asking for it.  Imagine how disappointed I am to realize it don't even work, and I did all this code modification just so our A2003 ran in A2007, just for PDF, and it doesn't work.

While were on the subject of things.  Can someone tell me why when I do a search in A2007, the default help search is for ALL Products, shouldn't it default to search A2007 documentation ONLY?

I don't really much care about Visio, or word, or excell when Im trying to figure out something that is Access related.  The help system has gone downhill.

Incidentally, Erwin, I have started to review the DBACentral builder 2.  So far, what I can see, its not bad and thanks for the recommendation.

"# clintc said on July 11, 2008 12:53 AM:

We look forward to doing more for developers in future releases--we have a responsibility to balance that with the needs of all our users. Like I said before--my preference is to find features that are good for end users and developers."

Again, the ‘end user’ argument. I just don’t understand this argument. It is like a magic sentence that answers all complaints. If you complain it is because you are a developer, and Access is actually intended also for what is called ‘end users’. But who are these ‘end users’? And how do the changes in Access07 serve them? Can they really make use of Access07 if even developers can’t seem to? Can you show me one end user that used the ribbons or that made any meaningful use of A2007? And isn’t it true that end users actually go for Excel and do not really bother with Access?

As far as I can understand, this is a way to avoid any raised issues instead of dealing with them. But maybe I don’t understand because I see myself as a developer and not an ‘end user’.

"# M. David Matney said on July 15, 2008 1:23 AM:

You justify it by indicating "but you asked us for these features" - We may ask for alternate color rows, or calendar controls, etc.  But these are OPTIONS, not requirements."

David, I like your distinction between Options and Requirements. I think that all the nice added features are nice and welcome additions or ‘Options’ as you call them, but if ‘Required’ basic functionality is lacking or missing then the added new wonderful features (assuming they work) can’t be of much use. That is why, in my view, a lengthy discussion of how all these new bells and whistles have been added is really missing the point.

Gilad