Microsoft Access Team Blog

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Clint,

Does the feedback tell you how much time we waste looking for common commands?  

Does it calculate our lost revenue due to the time that was wasted?

How about time wasted redesigning all our forms due to the oversized ribbon?

Don't get me wrong, the ribbon is okay, but a 'classic menus' option would definetely improve adoption.  I find it silly that, for the first time, I can't recommend an office upgrade because my clients are experiencing lost productivity due to the new UI.

Return of the Database Window would be nice too.  Add all the new features you want but why remove the old ones?

Any sharepoint news on v14 comming?

Thanks,

Josh

Clint,

Josh comment plus.. How about the distribution issues? do we have to buy Sagekey for A14 Runtime Installer? or install  Virtual machine to make our finish product solid and stable? Why..why..why not create the distribution of ms access runtime even like that of  Visual Foxpro or RBase. But if your team can make it like Delphi (Single EXE) then MS ACCESS is NextToNone as a RAD DB Dev't Tool.

Hoping...

Thanks

ERwin

I agree with Josh. I haven't been recommending Access 2007 to my clients either (and I have over 20,000 of them using Access) because of the new user interface. It's horrible.

I'm just now starting to make Access 2007 tutorials for my site because so few of my customers have actually upgraded to it (and I poll them regularly). The ones who have say that they can't stand it.

The lack of an option to go back to the "classic" interface of Access 2003 and earlier is completely unacceptable and shows a lack of caring on Microsoft's part. It's as if you said, "we don't care that all of you have been using Access for 15 years and are familiar with the product - here's a radical design change. Too bad if you don't like it."

While the Ribbon might provide easy access to the commands that YOU think are popular, it certainly doesn't represent the way that ALL Access users work, and for some of us it actually makes things much more difficult. It's surprising lack of customizability (for the average user) makes the problem even worse.

I'll take the old menu / toolbars system any day. A simple checkbox to replace the traditional interface would be all you'd need. I've seen third-party programs that do it for Word and Excel. Why not Access?

Yes, bring back the Database Window. The objects pane to the left is annoying.

Richard Rost

AccessLearningZone.com

P.S. I'm not trying to rain on Access' parade. I love Access. I've been using it since version 1.0, and I've made most of my living developing Access databases and tutorials. It's still the BEST personal database development tool on the market. However the revolutionary changes in Access 2007 were just a complete shock.

I can't vote in the manner you outline because I don't use any Office 2007 generation software. Only one client migrated to Office 2007, the rest have stayed with Office 2003, as I recommended. So they can't 'vote' either. The 'voting' is rigged.

But anyways, our 'voting' or not does not matter. You guys have shown absolutely zero concern for the fact that you've been messing up Access, according to most Access devs. Go ahead and shock us by granting any of our substantial wishes. But I think we're not holding our breaths.

I hang out in a number of software development areas. I do not think that there is any development platform, if Access can be called that, where there is such an overt and massive split between the developers that use the product and the people who are in charge of the product. The Access Team people must have nerves of steel to be able to dismiss the concerns of your most avid fans, year after year. Congrats on that?

I am using an older version of Access for a MIssion Critical Application that serves 80 users.  Its very slow.  Are there any tools that will convert Access forms and reports to a modern web tool like VB or C Sharp.

I agree with all of the above comments (Booker, Erwin Leyes, Richard Rost and michaels). I believe Microsoft is catering too much to the first time users of Access, but those are the same people that the Excel team is trying to keep in their camp, by doing things like increasing the maximum number of records in Excel 2007 to over a million. Two teams battling each other to grow their user bases. IMHO, Access should focus more on those who have decided that Excel may not be the most capable tool in all situations, and are willing to put some effort into learning a new tool.

@Bob - If your application is slow now, what makes you think that re-writing it with VB or C# will make it any faster? Consider the following quote taken from  the book titled "Microsoft Access Developer's Guide to SQL Server", written by Mary Chipman and Andy Baron (SAMS Publishing):

<Begin Quote>

"Many people think that upsizing from the Jet database engine to SQL Server is a universal panacea for whatever is ailing their Access databases. It's not. In fact, just the opposite is usually true. If your Access application is a dog, then most likely it will still be a dog after you upsize it to SQL Server--perhaps an even bigger, uglier, shaggier dog! Even a well-designed Jet database often won't run any faster after the tables are upsized to SQL Server if you are using the same data access methods you used for your Access database. In order to successfully convert your Access database, you have to be clear about why it needs to be upsized, and you need to understand how to take advantage of the strengths of SQL Server by reworking the data access elements of your Access application."

</End Quote>

Bob,

PS. Forgot to include a link to an article that you may find helpful:

Implementing a Successful Multiuser Access/JET Application

http://www.accessmvp.com/TWickerath/articles/multiuser.htm

Tom

I agree with some of the other commenters here in that I have yet to see a wide adoption of Office 2007.  I don't think that companies believe it's enough of a improvement/upgrade from Office 2003 to spend the money and deal with the perceived learning curve associated with the ribbon.

I myself have recently gotten a copy of Office 2007 just so I could play with it and see what all of the hand wringing is about.  Yes, it's different, yes, it can be annoying initially, but overall I think that if one were using it daily you'd be able to figure out how to find what you're looking for in fairly short order.  To reinforce this point, I have been using Lotus Notes for mail in my last 2 companies going back to 2001.  I will be starting a new job where they use Outlook for email.  Is is going to be a little bumpy in the beginning ?  Sure....but a month from now I'll be fine...

Take a deep breath fellas...the sky is not falling.  Some of the venom I see spewed here repeatedly is a bit much ;)

Hi all,

I don't mean to beat up on the the Access team.  Much of what I have said about the ribbon and missing db window is well know to them.  And believe me, I'm not adverse to change either, I work to advocate change in organizations every day using the best agile dev tool ever made.  

I think it's great they have automatic feedback that can help tailor the product to better fit the way it's actually used.  In theory anyway.

To assume the feedback gathered is the whole picture, is probably a mistake.  Can I ask how many Access Developers turn on 'Customer Experience'?  I'd guess not many.

I love Access.  It's how I make my living.  I help my clients become more productive by using Access.  Beginning with 97 and including every version upgrade since XP, there has been real value for my clients and even some for me as a developer.  Access 2007 might well be the best version uprade yet with it's sharepoint integration.  I see Access as a facilitator of sharepoint adoption in the small bus space.  Unfortunately it's not happening because I have to come back to making my clients more productive before I can recommend the upgrade.  

There's no venom spewing here, as I said, I love Access.  However the fact still remains that there is no good reason 'classic menu' option wasn't included and database window was dropped.  If they simply left those two features available, all my clients would be on it, instead of none.  Also, even if they were there, then I'm sure I'd be using the ribbon by now.  I just want them availble to maintain productivity through the transition.

The sky isn't falling, true, but I don't have a month or so to be unproductive.  If I don't produce, I don't get paid.

Also, starting Outlook 2007 for email will be a breeze.  Why?  Because MS didn't include the ribbon in the Outlook application window.  Notice it still has classic menus.  Even though they really wanted to force ribbons, they were smart to anticipate the backlash from every business person who's first task in the morning is to open Outlook and try to get things done.

Too bad  MS didn't extend the same courtesy to Access users.

PS...Still looking forward to v14 news about Access Web Services & Sharepoint.

Thanks,

Josh

PSS...

The rationale for the ribbon is said to be easier to find commands with fewer clicks.  If you have to guess what ribbon somethings on I don't find it fewer clicks.  For example:

Create mde, linked table manager = same clicks

Get external data = more clicks

The truth is you don't find File | Edit | View menus on a web page and MS wants to update the UI to pave the way to 'Office Online'  That's fine, but why not just leave 'classic menus' as an option for a couple versions?

Have you done a query on your feedback data to show how frequently users go from tab to tab to tab looking for commands?  That would be telling.

Or skip the query and just add a few more buttons to the ribbon:

'Pulling my hair out' button would get a lot of clicks.

or

'Giant waste of space' button with a pretty picture of a dollar bill in the recycle bin might be appropriate.

Okay, I'll stop...now I might be starting to 'spew'.

After all MS knows better than we do whats good for us, they have the 'Customer Experience Improvement Program' (improvement optional).

Josh

I understand folks when they say why not leave the option of the old menu system in addition to the new ribbon.  However, how do you ultimately wean users off the old menus if you keep allowing them the option to use it.  Then what did all the time & money spent by the Clint and the Access team truly buy ?

I do understand that developers will be more affected by the changes to the interface than regular or power users like myself.  I wonder if folks over at the Excel, or Word, or Powerpoint blogs are bitching about the ribbon too ?

Hey, it's all good...although I'm not a professional developer my Access skills are my primary tool for earning my living as a data analyst.  Access is not perfect, wasn't in the past...probably won't be in the future, but in my opinion, it's power and usefulness in the office remain unchallenged by any other products.

@Joseph Dowski

> Yes, it's different, yes, it can be annoying initially, but overall I think that if one were using it daily you'd be able to figure out how to find what you're looking for in fairly short order.

That's fine if you have the luxury of immersing yourself in Office 2007, and you are allowed some time at a reduced level of productivity to bring yourself up to speed. However, for many of us, we do not have that luxury. For example, at my place of employment (a Fortune 100 company in the US), the standard desktop software includes Office 2003 Pro. It is pretty well understood that one should do development work in the lowest version, rather than, for example, attempt to develop in Office 2007 and then downconvert to 2003 for distributing your work to your customers.

> I understand folks when they say why not leave the option of the old menu system in addition to the new ribbon.  However, how do you ultimately wean users off the old menus if you keep allowing them the option to use it.  

Why do you feel that Microsoft should be in the business of weaning their customers off of anything? Personally, I think it's fine that they developed the ribbon, even though I hate it. But that doesn't mean that they should decide for us what is best, by taking away the familiar menus and toolbars. I would have been perfectly happy if they would have set the ribbon as the default, allowing a person to switch back at their option. If usage patterns revealed that most people switched back and stayed there, then you'd clearly have your answer as to what the market wants. On the other hand, if usage patterns revealed that 90% or more of the user base predominately used the ribbon, and continued to do so for one or two version releases, then you'd have a solid case to kill off the menus and toolbars, given the extra costs associated with having to maintain both and test both. But to just kill the familar menus and toolbars from the get-go, and try to convince people how much they will like the Office Fluent Ribbon, is very heavy-handed in my opinion.

> Then what did all the time & money spent by the Clint and the Access team truly buy ?

Not every investment that Microsoft has ever made has been the best in the long run. Do you remember "Microsoft Bob"?

Tom Wickerath

Microsoft Access MVP

>Joseph Dowski>> "I wonder if folks over at the Excel, or Word, or Powerpoint blogs are bitching about the ribbon too ?"

Excel, Word and PowerPoint users are not required to develop or code the ribbons, or to tailor them to different applications. The ribbons they use have been created for them and they just need to use them rather then build them. So I think the comparison is completely wrong.

>>"I have been using Lotus Notes ...I will be starting ... Outlook for email...I'll be fine..."

I don't think the comments here can be reduced to just getting used to a new application that does the same thing. There is important functionality that is missing or lacking, and some functionality that was actually removed. I believe that an incremental improvement to basic functionality would have been greeted with much more warmth then the radical changes that were forced at the expense of more important stuff.

Has the MS Access team done a study on what clicks an Access developer makes?  I bet not . . .

So - the MS Access team is not changing Access for developers - only for new users.  

If you are a developer, it's time to move on.

Look guys, I'm not denying that developers may have some issues with the ribbon or changes and/or removal of some functionalities.....  

Gilad, I understand your points about users of other Office apps not have to building custom UI or write code but this also reinforces my own point which is that not every user of Access needs to build their own UI or write much more than basic code and/or some macros.  I think that developers should understand that they are the very tip of the Access food pyramid.  They have the most skills, and are the most well versed all the features & shortcomings of the app.  But for every class A developer out there pushing Access to it's limit there are 50 plain or power users who use Access effectively day to day without developer level skills.  

Believe me, in my heart I'm with the developers.  I too want to see Microsoft continue to support and push the development of Access forward.  I too was scratching my head and wondering why when I first saw the ribbon.  However, I also understand that Microsoft is seeking to both broaden as well as deepen it's Access user base and that not everything that's added to the product each release is aimed at me.

Hi to all Ms Access developers, here we are again! What if MS Access Team will create the Access Runtime distribution like Rbase or Visual FoxPro? for a comment, I think that is the best thing the team can do with regards to Runtime Distribution. They have a fat $ budget, so it is impossible  they cant afford to develop and extend the technology. Maybe there is politics inside MS? or Deficient Software Engineering Strategies? uhm...chk..chk..chk..

Erwin

Joseph, >“Some of the venom I see spewed here repeatedly is a bit much ;)”

While I agree that criticism should be kept respectable and to the point, I also think that it is to the benefit of Access and the Access team that people do speak their mind.

One of the purposes of this blog, and if you notice this thread’s title in particular, is to allow people to “make their voice heard”.

You can’t expect people to only whisper sweat nothings to the Access team’s ear. The fact that we are reading and writing posts here I think attests to the fact that we care and are rooting for the team and not against it. The basic premise is that people here care and look forward for improvement and change, and are favorable in their basic stance. But there are issues that need to be voiced, and it’s a good thing they be drived in.

>“not every user of Access needs to build their own UI.. class A developer…50 plain or power users”

I am amazed how people don’t get tired of the “end user argument”. As far as I know, every user of Access does in fact need to build their own UI. The ribbons are an integral part of the most basic of functionalities. As far as I know, Access 07 was no more of a success with end users as it was with developers, and I don’t care how many trillion times the templates were downloaded from the internet.

Gilad

Gilad,

> The fact that we are reading and writing posts here I think attests to the fact that we care and are rooting for the team and not against it. The basic premise is that people here care and look forward for improvement and change, and are favorable in their basic stance. But there are issues that need to be voiced, and it’s a good thing they be drived in. <

You point that the vocalness of folks posting here attests to the fact that they care and are involved is a good one and one I mean't to make myself.  I just think that it's highly unlikely that MS will roll back the ribbon now that it's been deployed across most of the rest of the Office apps...However, your point about Outlook not having the ribbon is an interesting one and one I'll see for myself tomorrow when I start a new job at a company that runs it.

How about letting Programmers and Developers have an option to enable the old menus style in the Access Options and leave the default installations to normal users.

I am not a professional developer and have spend about 300 hours on developing an Access 2003 based application.

Then came Access 2007. I looked into what it would take to migrate it. It's like the one gentleman said: I have to redesign my forms because the ribbon takes up too much space. I also have to redesign my custom toolbars in order to get the desired UI. But how: Access 2007 offers no tools to do so other than working with XML.

In the end I decided not to bother. I hope Access 14 will offer a better way of migrating.

1) I quite like the ribbon.

2) Do people really find a lack of space compared to commandbars when the ribbon is minimized?

3) Microsoft were rather naughty in not giving Access developers a sensible tool for modifying the XML within Access itself. It looks to me like they ran out of time. If that is the case, they ought to have carried on and created a proper tool.

4) Have a look at www.ribboncreator.de/en/ and have a look at his Ribbon Creator. I've had a play with it and it looks good. It is the tool Microsoft should have supplied. It is only £11.90. He is also doing something for converting commandbars.

Alan

Hi Alan,

Regarding the Ribbon Creator tool, this does me no good for my place of work, even if I was to purchase a copy. The reason is that we are not allowed to install any personally-owned software on PCs owned by the company. And the chances of getting third party software approved for official use, especially when from a small unknown vendor, are essentially zero. Yes, they should have included this with the product.

I go on record as one who really likes the ribbon and the new ui.

First of all, I think its also important to point out that as developers we REALLY need to turn on the customer experience options if your company allows this.

Unfortunately so few of us turned on this option for access 2003. Back then never gave this issue a thought. Today, access is such an important development platform for me, then I now realize how dumb I was in this regards.

I mean if all of us hard core developers been whacking f11 all day long for the last 4+ years in 2003, then our vote is going to count in a serious way. This would especially be the case for key shortcuts etc (I not sure if power users use those keys much..so, us develoeprs would have stood out very much in this area!!).

I often talk to people that don’t vote, but then complain about the government? It makes ZERO sense if one cares about this product to not partake in this voting system. That is very much the message here.  

So things like becoming involved in the access community, posting here, and partaking in the customer experience system is a good start if we developers want more of a say in the future direction of ms-access.

When I think of the amazing amount of development time I spent in access 2003 it is a crying shame I did not have the customer experience option turned on. I likely worn out a keyboard just using access 2003. My vote and that worn out keyboard was not being counted here.

I been using ms-access for a little more then 10 years in serious way.  I absolute love 2007 and I also love the ribbon. In fact, I found a number of keystroks and general "flow" of my development sequences were better, less effort and simply all around more enjoyable in 2007. There is lots of new features and options that makes the development process a whole lot smoother for me.

So, I think it important to point out that some of us real  gear head access developers in fact like the ribbon and the new UI a lot.

Albert D. Kallal

Edmonton, Alberta Canada

Access is dead. Microsoft took way too long to deliver anything useful here and has lost the shop to LAMP. Who on Earth wants an app that's not web-aware, crashes all the time and costs $300 an install? And it looks *so* Windows 95....

Oh yeah, and the new 'ribbon' is the suicide of Office. Nobody likes it and everyone at MS keeps calling it a success - is anyone there actually listening to users who universally hate it? I am, and that's why after 15 years of Access work, I just dumped the whole platform and went for superior, cheaper RAD solutions.

It's a shame you guys ran this into the ground. Great product 10 years ago. Kind of like the VHS of databases.

Regarding the "Customer Experience Improvement Program."

- What about the information from the Office Error Report, are you using this information ? ( I am sending in about 100 crash reports a Week )

- How will you capture how difficult it is to develop an application or to change an existing application so that it will be running on Access 2007 / 14

- When will you understand that Access is a DEVELOPMENT TOOL ? Most people will use Excel right out the box, but I think most people using Access are really using a customized solution DEVELOPED in Access. So you should focus on giving developers a modern, effective and stable development platform with Access 14.

Regarding the ribbon discussion:

- The ribbons were developed as a GUI interface for Word !! And the ribbon is a control to design ONE part of a GUI, but why did you disable all other parts for designing a GUI as Menubars, (floating) Toolbars ???

and you never gave us a programming interface to create a sidebar.

If the ribbon may the right GUI element for one application (Word), why do you think all other applications out in the world have to use the same interface ?