Microsoft Access 2010

Web Database oh it's great.

But what is with:

An intigrated Grid, a Treeview, Schedule-Controls ...

all things that are a go without saying in Dotnet.

Usefull Lists, Collections in VBA???

All you do is to integrate more colors.

But under the hood there is nothing!

It is a shame to see Access 2010 coming up all Sharepoint again. What a pity. The dearth of news about huron; nothing new re Access and SQL Server; the continued focus on Access as a Sharepoint client; your 'evolution' of Access away from what it's been so good at; are major disappointments.

It is really really freaky that Microsoft owned what were the two best database client technologies on the planet and is letting them rot or die. Access is being subverted into a sharepoint client. Foxpro was a marvel and it's gone. Databases rule the earth...but you're doing all you can to eliminate the tools for rapid development of db front ends? It's just so weird.

I am sorry to write another complaining post here about Access, but Access has been a big part of my life and I'm sorry to see it skew into something that is of little use. I know writing this has no impact on what the Access team does but it's hard to say nothing.

Michael: I second that.

P.S. I miss any vision of Web Services to be used from Access. WS is spreading all over the Internet. SharePoint is just a MS toy for a few people.

While SharePoint may need Access, Access does not need SharePoint.

I am thrilled and excited to see this!  A web database with data entry screens is what I want.

My Access database is being used by 8 PC in FE-BE.

Access Web services would make implementation much easier for me.

How much does Sharepoint 2010 cost? It would be nice if Sharepoint 2010 LITE version could be included in MS Access 2010 Developer edition. Price should not be more than 1.000 euros! I am a non professional developer - power user of Access.

It is really hard for me to understand the negative comments here. Nothing is being removed or replaced. This is *additional*. You don't have to use it if you don't have a use for it.

For myself, I am very excited. Thanks, Access team, for providing us with the opportunity of expanded options in the range of applications that we can build with Access.

I´m really depressed to see, that the stuff that really needs to be changed will not be done.

Only one Example: the Listbox-Control has not improved since Access 2.0 - that´s a shame - ACCESS NEEDS A BUILTIN MODERN LISTVIEW-CONTROL.

Negative comments kind of tend to show up when a useful but neglected product finally gets some juice from the parent company; and virtually none of the features needed are added; and the dev team states over and over that they care about what the users want; and they put out another rev that again seems to skip everything that we want.

I/we don't mind that they added better integration with sharepoint. What we all really really care about is that virtually none of the crucial features that have been requested for years and years are being added.

I don't know yet if they've taken away great Access features with 14 like they did with 12; but they are still morphing Access into something that it moving away from what we need.

RAD database front end development is just even more needed than it was 15 years ago, why are you burying the tools that make it possible?

Well, I for one am excited about the way Access is going. Now I see the point of improving the macros in Access 2007, i.e. leading into even more improvements in Access 2010 and their automatic conversion into Javascript in a web database.

When Access 2007 came out, I was less than enthusiastic about it, but have come to really like it. Even if things like the layout view (and the ease of moving controls it brings) and the ease of modifying sorting and grouping in reports was aimed at power users, it has certainly helped me as a developer. Couple that with the new report view in Access 2007 and for me it has turned out to be a big improvement. The security side of things was the only downer for me in the full, i.e. non-runtime, version of Access 2007.

Now in Access 2010 we have a whole new world opening up to us Access developers. We've got web databases and triggers (data macros). If that was all we had been given, I'd be a happy bunny, but we also have improved conditional formatting and one or two other things with think are still not for general disclosure (though maybe that will change this week?).

It certainly looks good to me!

Alan

Alan:

Worst things in Access 2007:

- incompatibility with previous versions of Access

- Ribbon & buggy QAT

- navigation pane

- poor help system

- old bugs remaining in new versions of Access

See http://www.alis.cz/relax/download/access/Access2007_bugs.rar.

There are a few thing that I like in A2007, but...

Peter:

There are serious bugs in ListBox, see ID 39 in http://www.alis.cz/relax/download/access/Access2007_bugs.rar. These bugs are very old. :-(

P.S.

I'm missing name index for ListBox/ComboBox columns.

@Steve Schapel - "It is really hard for me to understand the negative comments here. Nothing is being removed or replaced. This is *additional*. You don't have to use it if you don't have a use for it.

For myself, I am very excited. Thanks, Access team, for providing us with the opportunity of expanded options in the range of applications that we can build with Access."

I wholeheartedly agree !!!

Great job Clint, Ryan & and the rest of the Access Team ! :)

I love it!

I was a naysayer once, but not anymore.  For years, there was no developer focus and no good way to upsize to SQL nor out to web.  That's all changed with 2010.  Course I'm a bit puzzled as to how we can turn existing VBA into data macros, but at least there's a path for new work.

Now that External Lists, BCS, and Access Web Services are out of the bag at SPC09, can we hear more about where the data goes?  Do Access tables become SQL Server tables?  Does it use External Content Types and BCS?  Or does the data lump into sharepoint userdata as with 2007?

I do hope for a 'lite' version of Access web services that will run on Sharepoint Foundation.  Access is commonly used in small businesses where Sharepoint Enterprise is an imposible sell.

I'm really impressed guys!  Just wish I had an x64 dev box to install the beta.

Keep info comming!

Josh

[SharePoint is just a MS toy for a few people]

Some say that SharePoint has had the fastest adoption of any Microsoft product.  Our company can hardly keep up with the client demand to deploy and design sites.  I'm an old Access guy.  I loved the product in '93 and I still use it today but IT groups everywhere struggle to support hundreds of runaway "mission critical" MDB applications.  Taking Access to the enterprise will breath more life into this product.

[How much does Sharepoint 2010 cost? It would be nice if Sharepoint 2010 LITE version could be included in MS Access 2010 Developer edition.]

Like Windows SharePoint Services, SharePoint 2010 Foundation (i.e. SharePoint "Lite") is a free download.

I don't disagree that it would be nice to see some of the most basic Access desktop functionality modernized & improved but the decision to integrate Access with SharePoint is exciting news.

Vladimir

"Worst things in Access 2007:"

- incompatibility with previous versions of Access - I've not hit anything major, just a Requery problem.

- Ribbon & buggy QAT - Ribbon is hard work. There is some, but not a lot, of help in 2010.

- navigation pane - Spot on and I've not seen any improvement in 2010. This was a major step backwards (I'm being polite here).

- poor help system - Yes, hit F1 when the focus is on "ControlSource" in a form's property sheet and what do you get? Ten items in Help all entitled "ControlSource Property" and nothing to say which of them is the one for the type of control I'm working with. Very poor.

- old bugs remaining in new versions of Access

See http://www.alis.cz/relax/download/access/Access2007_bugs.rar. - I tried opening this but get an error on most forms and it is accde so I can't see the code. I did manage to see the listbox ItemsSelected.Count problem and reported this as a bug in Access 2010 TP as it occurs there too. Have given them a sample database with a form based on yours.

Alan

I am afraid that I must also share the role of being a party pooper here.

Steve wrote: “..Nothing is being removed or replaced. This is *additional*. You don't have to use it if you don't have a use for it…”

If only that were true. Many things were actually removed in Access07. They are not re-introduced in this next version, as some of us were hoping. It is also a matter the priorities for what is being given attention by the Access team.

I am having a déjà-vous here. Again, a new version of Access that eliminates, or does not support important crucial elements that people have been asking for, and favors new half-baked visionary rudimentary functionality instead.

Why do I say rudimentary? Well, I remember reading in this blog some explanations written by Michael Kaplan, about SharePoint. I searched for it but could not find it. (Was it removed? Can someone find it?) Michael, if you are reading this, can you please respond and correct me if and where I am wrong. If I understand correctly, and if I remember correctly, SharePoint holds all data for a given application in one single table. It does not give you the ability to build indexes for tables, or joins between tables. In my book that spells rudimentary (and I certainly mean no disrespect for the people that developed it, I understand that their task is so complex). The above video hardly mentioned VBA. Is that now a taboo word? As exiting as it may seem, SharePoint is still in its very early stages of development. In the meantime, there are real applications to support that SharePoint can not accommodate.

It seems to me that the Team is trying to change and reinvent Access. Adding internet functionality is great, but you also have to think of all those people that invested many years of building applications ‘the old way’. You are not supporting them or providing them enhancements that they need and ask for. Many people wrote in this blog a lot of requests. It seems to me that these voices have not been heard. I don’t think I am just being conservative. I am being practical.

I for one, was hoping for easier deployment of existing rich applications. Making it easier to build and maintain the ribbon. Providing an easy way to build shortcut menus. Solving multiple version clashes. And most importantly, improving the impoverished Package and Deploy wizard. I am sure a lot of people can write better lists of such issues then me.

I believe Clint already wrote that there is not going to be a user interface or a code object structure for building the ribbon. Also he wrote that user level security is not being returned. By the looks of things, I am willing to bet that the Package and Deploy wizard will not be improved upon either.

The previous blog post called people to be involved in the Access page in FaceBook. An old Chinese proverb says that a good product will sell itself. The marketing efforts would have gained my respect if I would have felt that the current users of Access would have been receiving more respect. It doesn’t matter how many people will download templates, or will enter the FaceBook page, if the product will not answer the users needs it will still not be successful. How long can you ride on the success of the previous teams that developed the original product?

I don’t know why I am writing this. No one intends to do anything about it anyway.

O’ well, what ever.

I've seen this product first-hand.  These are Intranet not internet databases.  The product is nice just not as full featured as you'd hope.  Think Access 1.0.  This version will open up a way of thinking for databases, some people will push the limits of the product but overall it needs a bit more.  I think most people will like it for the shared environment where you have both a client and server side app with shared data.  The new data macros are very nice and people will like these a lot.  I'm sure the improved macros will be hit and miss.  Some will love them, some won't.  Look at it as a much better bridge between those who don't code and those who do.  The macro designer is very nice now though.

@Gilad:[Why do I say rudimentary?]

That depends on where the data goes.  While what you're saying is true for 2007, it's yet to be seen whether Access data goes into the single userdata table or whether it takes advantage of SP2010 new External Lists and Business Conectivity Services features.  If the latter, then the data could go into separate SQL tables.  My guess is it goes into userdata which is a bummer.  But hopefully they will use bcs and external content types next time.  Without that, this is not a usable upsize to sql.

Clint Another Question:

Why not allow calling a VBA function from data macro?  Do like Infopath does, just prompt us if it's incompatible with sharepoint.  Or don't allow it if the type off app is 'web database'.  But please don't leave it out altogether.

I can understand how it would not work in sharepoint,  but I can't imagine how to bring an existing app from VBA to data macros without ability to call vba.

TIA,

Josh

Yes, access needs a better list view

Yes, access needs a better grid

Yes, access needs a better and Faster SQL connection.

BUT

Yes, access needs also a connection to SharePoint too.

Yes, access needs a web interface too.

Take it easy guys, some things needs priority. . .

I tend to agree that we all agree on the grid, list, and the most needed of all a better SQL connection.

But at least I’m happy they did not remove core functionality. .

Ribbon and designer have been improved a lot, so go ahead guys (access team, Clint, Ryan, Steven, Kerry, Summit, Surah, Eran, Drew, etc,etc, others) keep doing the good work.

Please, do not forget about us. . .

(New grid, new list view, new faster SQL CONNECTTION)

Edwin

Stay tuned...right.

Many of us have been tuned in to this Access team blog for four years. We have seen our Access developer requests, repeated over and over and over again, bounce off you guys for the most part. We'd supposedly wait for a third new Access iteration if we actually kept up the faith. Or, maybe the fourth? Nth?  

Most of us of course have been waiting for a decade for a mature Access/sql server interop, and the rest of the needs we have.

To some of you above who posted that you're glad of the focus on sharepoint, right, that in itself does not pose a problem for anyone. Good if you make a buck working Access and Sharepoint. The loss is that Access makes no forward progress in it's prominent role as a RDBMS front end.

Alan Cossey: You can find more incompabilities in my "A2007 bugs & issues" database. I think you can reproduce most of the bugs in A2010 too. The database has been sent to CC long time ago, then I sent it to MSFT team when I was testing A2007 SP2... but most of the bugs still remain in Access. :-(

PS...@Gilad: [Well, I remember reading in this blog some explanations written by Michael Kaplan, about SharePoint. I searched for it but could not find it. (Was it removed? Can someone find it?)]

Here's the post you were looking for:

http://blogs.msdn.com/access/archive/2006/09/18/publish-to-sharepoint.aspx

As Clint said, some improvements have been made in SP2010 for cascades, etc, but the Access data is still going into the one userdata table in this release.

Yet to be seen whether the improvements are enough to get past the 1000 record performance limitation.  

Next release, let's hope Access sync to Sharepoint will upsize to SQL Tables, then use External Lists, External Content Types, and Business Connectivity Services. Only then will this be a true up-and-out method for a relational app.

Still think it's great!  Keep it up team!

Josh

Clint,

Sharepoint compatability aside, wouldn't it be pretty simple for you to add the ability to call a client side vba function from data macro?  

I have no idea how to even begin moving an existing app from vba to data macros without being able to call client side vba from the macro to do the things that macros can't.

Bascially I don't agree with keeping a simple feature out on the basis of, 'it's not compatible with sharepoint'.

Maybe I'm jumping the gun, so I'll be patient for your vba post.

Josh

Clint Covington: Looking forward to hear about Web Services.

Peter

You stated "the Listbox-Control has not improved since Access 2.0 - that´s a shame - ACCESS NEEDS A BUILTIN MODERN LISTVIEW-CONTROL."

That's extremely vague.  Please be much more specific as to what you feel is required.   Feel free to write paragraphs.

Tony

Joao Santos

You stated" My Access database is being used by 8 PC in FE-BE.

Access Web services would make implementation much easier for me. "

Are you aware of the free Auto FE Updater utility?   http://autofeupdater.com/  That might help.

PS...@Josh: [Here's the post you were looking for:]

This is actually not the post I was looking for, but it is also very informative indeed. Thanks for the link. I read it again and find it discouraging to note that despite the many efforts that users of Access have been exerting for such a long time, in order to clarify what they want and need in the product, the Access team nevertheless, still seems so unresponsive. I think the product is very good, but needs some finishing touch to make it very useful. This last 1 percent of investment will make it maybe 50 percent more useful then it currently is. It is like a car with no wheels. The car is great, but you can’t really drive it unless you make all sorts of difficult improvisations to get it on the road. The small number of people actually using Access in order to build shelf-products will testify to that.

It got me thinking that maybe there is something that I am missing here. After all the people forming the team are very intelligent people. I am trying to put myself in the shoes of the people making decisions about the future of Access. Maybe they are saying to themselves something like this:

“

We are a business company and we want to make a profit. There are competitors emerging in the market that we must try to beat. Maybe Google Base, or Rubi on rails, or maybe even competitors from within Microsoft like the dot net, and others.

It is not true that the current user base is important for the future of Access. In a few years time this technology will be obsolete because the world is moving to the Internet. We do not mind sacrificing the current user base in favor of the future user base which will be large if the program will be good and useful. That is where our future profits lie. So improving on VBA is not a priority, as well as many other client side technologies. So people can’t easily distribute their current applications, so what? What is in it for us? So it will take another 5 to 10 years to get Internet-enabled-Access to function in the level of the current Access format, so what? We have nothing to gain in improving the current format, so we must move on.

“

All this is fair enough. The problem I have with this is that from my point of view this leaves me ‘abandoned’, so to speak, and I must look for an alternative for the near future at least. Can anyone point in any good direction? I don’t think I will be interested in learning a complete new programming language but who knows. I feel that I have a good set of skills for using Access, but fear that these skills will soon be redundant. Is Dot net a good replacement? How does it compare to Access?

If this thread will close please continue it as talkbacks for a more recent post.

Thanks

Gilad

Vladimir,

I reproduced the bug you wrote about where a listbox starts showing the wrong number of selected items. I've raised it on the beta discussion forum and got a message back that the Microsoft team is "currently investigating the issue."

Alan

Alan: Great job! TYVM for passing the bug to MSFT again.

Vladimir,

"Alan: Great job! TYVM for passing the bug to MSFT again."

Unfortunately, I have now got a reply saying they "are unable to incorporate a fix in the product at this time, however, they (the product group) have marked it for consideration in a future release.

Personally, if there was a bug like this in _my_ software, I'd correct it as a matter of pride, but there you go.

Alan

Alan: That's why there are too many bugs in Access. :-(

Access developer team doesn't mind if Access if performing OK. I hate this policy!!! Grrr...

I have been developing software for 25 years... I wish, just once, I could tell the user that I have marked a known issue for "consideration in a future release."  Are their any openings in that Product Group?  I feel the pain of all you guys stating your frustrations.

Microsoft has fiddled away the careers of developers and power users who bet on and invested precious attention into Microsoft Access.  If you continue to invest your time, be aware that the MS Access team is clearly under the thumb of the MS Office organization which sees Access as a cash cow and a way to drive sales of other products, like SQL Server and Sharepoint.  

MS is acting as though there were no other alternatives or real competition, which there is now.  Wavemaker and Alpha Five v10 are gaining market share.  Clearly some developers and power users prefer the Microsoft way, but frankly, based on the neglect of the product that I've seen over the last ten years, I expect that any feature that Access has will continue to stagnate unless it drives sales of another teams product.  

Another sign that MS believes it has no competition in the database space.  Mindless adoption of the malignant ribbon.  

Also, the report writer in MS Access hasn't been updated in years.  It really isn't competitive with enterprise level report writers or even Crystal Reports, to the point where the SQL server team has developed its own report writer.  

These are all minor investments for the MS team to have made relative to MS Access's importance to those who rely on it.  Yet, we still have to wait as a second class citizens or adopt the much costlier to learn and slower to develop .NET approach.  

Many businesses are wasting money developing applications for 1 - 50 users using Java or .NET that could be developed with MS Access.  

In the end, the Apple commercial mocking Windows 7 has it right.  Disappoint me once or even twice, shame on you.  Disappoint me repeatedly over 10 years, shame on me.