re: We don't make the software you use, we make the software you use better....

Adam Barr — Sat, 24 Jul 2004 15:37:00 GMT

I am not saying testers should be not be good or really good or great developers. All I am saying is that they don't need to be as good (as developers) as the SDEs. In an ideal world, all PMs would also be as good at development as developers are. Heck in a really ideal world all of marketing would be also. But in reality, Microsoft has thousands of open jobs, and can't find enough people to hire. Given that, a top-notch developer would be steered towards SDE over SDET.

Here's a question: what is the ladder level of a typical entry-level SDE vs. SDET? What about a test manager vs. a dev manager? Until those are equal, SDET won't truly be equal to SDE.

(Also I'll point out that in the timeframe I was discussing in my book, the SDET job was nonexistent or new, and I was really talking about STE vs. SDE. Those statements from recruiting and management about how testers were just as qualified, as developers, as SDEs were -- those were being made about STEs, not SDETs.)

Anyway, I was reading some of your other posts and there were a couple of interesting quotes (talking about what you look for in interview candidates):

<I>For SDET, the bar goes up slightly in that I am looking for an additional skill. I look to see if they can test their own code. Sure, everyone tests their own code, right? It’s just part of the development process, right? Well, not exactly. Can they step back from the fact that they wrote the code, and look with a critical eye on their implementation?</I>

<I>Ideally, we want to hire all #3 types [can test own code and other's code] for SDE or SDET, but we really need them in SDET roles. Why? Well, for test code, there is no additional organization that test’s the test code to ensure that it is working correctly, so these people are the last line of defense between the bugs in their code that cause test code to not uncover flaws in the shipping code. #4s [can test own code, but not others'] are ok as SDE as well, they can test their own code, they just don’t help their peers that much via code reviews. Mostly, these people see one solution to a problem, and when people throw a different algorithm at them to solve a problem, they struggle grasping it, so reviewing someone else’s implementation is challenging for them.</I>

What you are saying is that SDETs actually have a bigger skill set than SDEs (I didn't see any mention of a skill that SDEs have that SDETs don't). My first thought was "Nice try!" But it did make me think for a while. Is there an extra technical skill that SDETs have that SDEs don't, beyond being able to tolerate obnoxious SDEs with a superiority complex? Nonetheless, I maintain my position that someone who would be a bad SDET (by lacking this skill, whatever it was) would also be a bad SDE. To be a good developer you have to be able to step back and analyze code. And you have to be able to consider different algorithms -- if you can't do that, you're not a good developer, period. The only difference between testing your own code and someone else's is that you might view it as beneath you to have to look at someone else's code. I think THAT is the difference between #3 and #4. It's an attitude thing, not a difference in technical skills. And I would say that the #4 people (of which Microsoft has plenty, certainly) ultimately make bad SDEs also.

You used to see interview feedback (frowned upon by HR) that said "he's not good enough to be an SDE, maybe try SDET?" Your post has given me hope that someday, you might actually see someone write "I don't think he has the skills to be an SDET...maybe he could try for plain old SDE"?

- adam

P.S. Incidentally I am back at Microsoft, working as a PM (insert joke here). The single thing that most impresses me about my new group is the quality of the test team, AND the attitude of the dev team towards the test team. So maybe things are changing, slowly.

The STE vs. SDET Debate

I. M. Testy — Fri, 19 May 2006 08:48:50 GMT

What is the difference between a software test engineer (STE) and a software design engineers in test...

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