How to avoid OS reboot prompt when installing the .NET Framework 3.5 on Windows Vista

re: How to avoid OS reboot prompt when installing the .NET Framework 3.5 on Windows Vista

willdean — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:25:22 GMT

If I read this right, this is a catasrophe, isn't it?

No one can safely deploy the 3.5 framework with their applications without adding this custom code to their installer?

Surely the 3.5 installer is the place to be including the code to inhibit the OS behaviour?

Framework deployment is still the biggest psychological barrier to shipping .NET applications - why would MS inflict this kind of nightmare on us all, when it could have been dealt with by the framework installer?

Interesting Finds: November 14, 2007

Jason Haley — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:53:05 GMT

re: How to avoid OS reboot prompt when installing the .NET Framework 3.5 on Windows Vista

astebner — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:49:04 GMT

Hi WillDean - I think calling this scenario a "nightmare" or a "catastrophe" is too strong of a statement. The reboot dialog that appears in this scenario does not automatically cause a reboot - it only reboots if the user clicks the Restart Now button. In many cases, users are not watching the system closely enough to notice that dialog, or they will not choose to restart with that dialog because they realize that another setup is running.

Ideally, the .NET Framework 3.5 setup would contain this workaround logic, but unfortunately the issue was found too late in the beta process in order to get it fixed in time.

One important note - this issue will only affect systems that do not already have the .NET Framework 2.0 SP1 and/or 3.0 SP1 installed. Future hotfix rollups and service packs for Windows Vista will more than likely include 2.0 SP1 and 3.0 SP1, and therefore will not ever run into this issue.

re: How to avoid OS reboot prompt when installing the .NET Framework 3.5 on Windows Vista

willdean — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 20:31:42 GMT

But haven't you just described the nightmare scenario?

1. Application installer starts 3.5 framework install

2. 3.5 installer installs 2.0SP1 and 3.0SP1 and then starts to install 3.5

3. User notices OS reboot message and presses OK

4. Machine reboots in the middle of 3.5 install

5. Upon restart, machine has broken 3.5 install - I would imagine that there's a very high risk that this broken 3.5 install will prevent the 3.5 install running again - or is that not the case?

If it is, then as a 3rd party developer it's now my problem to get the appropriate cleanup tools onto the end-user's machine to allow the 3.5 install to be cleaned-up and retried.

And all this because the poor user agreed to a suggestion that the OS made to them?

I dread to think how bad your dreams must be if this *isn't* a nightmare. Let's hope the framework SP's are pushed as critical updates as quickly as possible.

Or have I misunderstood the whole thing?

Will

re: How to avoid OS reboot prompt when installing the .NET Framework 3.5 on Windows Vista

astebner — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 20:43:27 GMT

Hi Willdean - Yeah, I agree that the worst case scenario here is a nightmare, but I don't think it is a very likely end user scenario overall, which is why I don't think that I'd call it a "nightmare" overall. For example, if I initiate a setup on my system, I am not going to respond to a reboot request not displayed by that setup until after the setup finishes. (or maybe I've just been working with setups too long and have gotten less scared of issues like this over time)

In addition, the Postpone button appears to be the default button on this OS reboot prompt, so users are not too likely to accidentally press Enter and cause a reboot to happen. Finally, the reboot prompt will happen after installing 2.0 SP1 and 3.0 SP1, but the time that it takes to install the remaining part of the .NET Framework 3.5 is relatively fast (1 minute or less on most of the systems I've seen), so the user would have to be actively looking for this dialog and respond to it pretty quickly to fall within the time window required to put the system in a bad state.

Depending on the exact time when the reboot is initiated out from under the .NET 3.5 setup, it may or may not be recoverable by simply re-running .NET 3.5 setup. From what I've seen in the past, nearly all cases are recoverable without needing to resort to cleanup tools, etc.

I definitely agree that something like this could have been handled better within .NET 3.5 setup, but unfortunately that isn't the case, so I wanted to post a warning just in case folks run into this type of issue in their .NET 3.5 deployment scenarios. I think it is something worth keeping in mind but not necessarily something to panic about.

re: How to avoid OS reboot prompt when installing the .NET Framework 3.5 on Windows Vista

Kevin Dente — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 21:57:30 GMT

Sorry, Aaron, but I agree with Will. This is a horrible bug that WILL bite people in the butt. How do I know? Well, partly because I encountered this exact bug when installing Beta 2. It hosed my machine (yes, I clicked reboot now - partly because the install was taking so long and with so little feedback). And I'm a professional software developer.

I really don't think that taking the optimist approach and counting on people to be smart enough to not click the button is a good move. People will do it, I guarantee. You're fooling yourself if you think they won't.

re: How to avoid OS reboot prompt when installing the .NET Framework 3.5 on Windows Vista

astebner — Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:20:42 GMT

Hi Kevin Dente - I'm definitely not trying to say that it won't ever happen - I've seen repeatedly in the past that as long as the code path is reachable some percentage of people will hit it over time. I also wasn't intending to come across as overly optimistic. I was simply trying to point out some of the mitigations that I think make this problem not likely to affect a large number of people in the grand scheme of things. The mitigations I point out don't mean that the issue won't ever happen, but I think they do mean that calling this scenario a nightmare or a catastrophe in a general sense is a bit too strong.

That doesn't imply that it could be a nightmare for a specific machine where a premature reboot does occur. However, even in cases I've seen where that happened so far, re-running .NET 3.5 setup allowed the system to recover. I also realize that this type of smooth recovery won't be possible 100% of the time, but that is also true for any number of other possible points of failure during any product installation.

It would definitely be ideal if .NET Framework 3.5 setup handled this behind the scenes. Unfortunately, it does not. As a result, other types of mitigations, including further education about the issue via readmes and blog posts have to be considered. That was the intent of this blog post - to try to help people who will be deploying the .NET Framework 3.5 more aware of this potential issue.

One other thing I should add - if you run into the error scenario that is possible as a result of this issue, I strongly encourage you to report it as a bug on the Connect site (http://connect.microsoft.com/visualstudio) to help the .NET Framework setup team get a better understanding of how often this issue happens "in the wild" - this can help lead to improvements in future versions of the .NET Framework installer.

re: How to avoid OS reboot prompt when installing the .NET Framework 3.5 on Windows Vista

willdean — Thu, 15 Nov 2007 01:55:30 GMT

Kevin, I think you and I live in a different world to Aaron.

If I auto-updated 100000 copies of this to one of my clients' retail user-base next week (of course, I won't), I don't think that readme.txt 'education' or filing bugs on Connect are going to be much comfort.

If 1% of those users click 'reboot' when they're asked to (aren't we trying to train them to obey security instructions?) and 1% of them subsequently have install problems, I shall still lose a week's-worth of time trying to help people on the other side of the world get their computers going again.

The sad truth for MS is that, of course, for applications like that one, which absolutely HAVE to install and run without any pain, we use statically-linked MFC/ATL/C++, and we don't use MSI, either.

I *love* programming with C#/.NET, but I suspect I'm not alone in thinking that it would be one hell of a risk in the wild for a high-volume end-user deployment. That there are screw-ups like this being shipped 4 versions of the framework into the whole .NET thing makes me certain that I care more about this kind of stuff than MS do.

You guys know what the bug is, and know what the fix is *BEFORE* you've even shipped the product, but you'd rather make it my problem than deal with it yourselves.

re: How to avoid OS reboot prompt when installing the .NET Framework 3.5 on Windows Vista

bgreenberg — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:33:04 GMT

I'm assuming this problem exists in the beta 2 redistributable.

Is it slated to be fixed in the official release?

re: How to avoid OS reboot prompt when installing the .NET Framework 3.5 on Windows Vista

astebner — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 00:38:54 GMT

Hi Bgreenberg - This issue exists in the beta version and unfortunately is not slated to be fixed in the final release either.

re: How to avoid OS reboot prompt when installing the .NET Framework 3.5 on Windows Vista

bgreenberg — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 01:06:11 GMT

I don't want to pile on, but my team ships a mass marketed consumer package that depends on .NET. We currently install the .NET 2.0 redist, if required, as the first phase in our installer. We have some other 3rd party dependencies as well.

In order to ensure smooth installation, we must trap ALL reboot requests and prompt the user in a way that makes sense in our installer flow. If there is any possibility for a premature reboot, this becomes a "very serious issue," if not a nightmare, for our support team. As others have mentioned, I am disappointed that the .NET team allowed this one out the door.

That said, thank you for thoroughly explaining the issue and providing a workaround. Does anyone know if there is an easy way to use the WUA API via MSI custom action?

Serious issue with the .NET 3.5 installer on Windows Vista

InstallSite Blog — Fri, 16 Nov 2007 19:21:23 GMT

Aaron Stebner reports an issue (some commenters call it a "nightmare") in the .NET Framework

Visual Studio 2008 si .NET Framework 3.5 sunt gata

Weblogul lui Zoli — Tue, 20 Nov 2007 10:58:56 GMT

Si se pot descarca de pe MSDN . MrSmersh adauga un discleimar "handle with care" din cauza unei probleme

re: How to avoid OS reboot prompt when installing the .NET Framework 3.5 on Windows Vista

mech9t8 — Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:47:10 GMT

This is clearly a bug that every commenter here would consider a RELEASE BLOCKER.

At the very least I would expect a sample project with the necessary workaround code.

Releasing a bug like this with nothing but an entry in the readme and a blog post is nothing sort of shameful. Who knows what kind of damage or unexpected results can happen from all the service-manipulating workaround code developers are going to have to put into their installers?

Of course, I don't know what's worse, that the .NET Framework doesn't stop the reboot message or the Windows installer can't handle a reboot request without borking a user's system. Considering how incredibly over-engineered the whole system is and how it runs with SYSTEM-level access I would expect it to be more robust.

This "it's not that bad and there are workarounds" seems indicative of the attitude in the recent Windows Update controversies and really among the whole Vista release. Sloppy and unprofessional, Microsoft.

(Nothing against you, Aaron, you're probably as upset about this as we are and are stuck taking the flack since you're the one with helpful blog.)

re: How to avoid OS reboot prompt when installing the .NET Framework 3.5 on Windows Vista

Batgar — Fri, 23 Nov 2007 20:29:56 GMT

The nightmare scenario is alive and well. There is no .NET Framework 2.0 SP1 or .NET Framework 3.0 SP1 install package available for Windows Vista.

As an app dev I will be relying on the .NET Framework 3.5 installation / bootstrapper to do the proper installation.

Now that I have to code workarounds within my installation for Vista, this is a huge barrier to .NET Framework 3.5 acceptance / installation for my application.

Ten Tips for a Happy Upgrade to Visual Studio 2008 (Release)

Jon Galloway — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:04:07 GMT

Visual Studio 2008 is out! I've upgraded three machines (two Vista, one XP) from Beta 2 to RTM, then

Avoid OS reboot prompt when installing the .NET Framework 3.5 on Vista

DotNetKicks.com — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 19:56:16 GMT

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re: How to avoid OS reboot prompt when installing the .NET Framework 3.5 on Windows Vista

JudahGabriel — Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:38:20 GMT

Wow, this is a very serious bug, Aaron. Please work with the folks there to fix this.

I've opened a bug on MS Connect:

https://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=313381

Folks, please vote for this an get this serious problem fixed.

Tudor Vlad’s Blog » Visual Studio 2008 & .NET Fw 3.5 - Overview

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re: How to avoid OS reboot prompt when installing the .NET Framework 3.5 on Windows Vista

peterchen — Sun, 16 Dec 2007 03:57:45 GMT

Aaron,

with all respect (and kudos for discussing this), I think your assesment is removed from end user reality.

The typical end user cannot tell apart "Funny Photos Setup" from "Windows Update". He's installing his new toy, a message pops up to "reboot to finish installing", and if he does, he's probably screwed.

The typical support call is "Your software broke my system", and you will be lucky to figure out that it happened during installation.

It's a hard job to train end users to actually reboot their system when a setup or Windows Update says "reboot". That impulse might actually a few hapless helpdesk souls, but next time our user will say "some computer guy told me not to reboot when this comes up". Some 3rd party vendors will work around by telling their users to deactivate Windows Update.

Microsoft expects one billion Windows computers next year. This is a component that will be redistributed by aspiring coders that wanted to "creating fun, cool projects that run on Windows" (quote MS web site), not fix installers.

This is the setup for a system update getting hairy with a system component that is core to security and stability.

I know these things aren't easy to get right. But if Microsoft doesn't think it's important, why should "we" - 3rd party developers?

I understand that your position is no official Microsoft statement, and I assume the bug is not your fault. I just wish you understand that there are more than just the technical issues.

re: How to avoid OS reboot prompt when installing the .NET Framework 3.5 on Windows Vista

astebner — Mon, 17 Dec 2007 00:58:23 GMT

Hi Peterchen - I definitely understand the possible user confusion caused by this issue. The worst part is that this issue can affect any application that installs the .NET Framework 3.5, not just developer tools like Visual Studio. I've communicated all of the feedback collected on this blog post to the .NET Framework setup team, but there's not a lot more I can do in the meantime. I'm going to try to work with them to create some sample code to implement the WU pause/resume APIs described above.

Also, I've experienced this issue on a couple of systems since the time that I posted my original comments about this issue, and it is worse then I initially anticipated because the time it takes to install 2.0 SP1, 3.0 SP1 and 3.5 on Windows Vista RTM can be really long. That makes it more likely that folks will notice the reboot prompt from Windows Update even if they're not actively watching their systems during installation of 3.5. The main piece of good news is that this issue won't affect systems that have Vista SP1, but of course that won't be available for a few more months, plus it doesn't provide a solution for applications that want to only require Vista RTM.

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Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:44:06 GMT

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Problem with the Pause/Resume Workaround

jsn_segal — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 01:39:35 GMT

I've been working on a simple application to implement the WUA Update/Resume workaround for my installer. Here's how it works:

1. Check for pending reboots. If A reboot is required, alert the user and quit.

2. Check for WUA installations in progress. If one is in progress, alert the user and quit.

3. Pause the WUA

I'm not currently bothering to resume, since this should happen in 8 hours anyway (or the next time the user reboots).

The problem is that, while the IUpdateInstaller interface's IsBusy property allows me to make sure no WUA installations are running, I don't see any way to determine whether or not a "download and immediately install" cycle is currently in its download phase. This means that if an update is being downloaded when my installer starts, the WUA may begin installing it and interrupt my installer despite all the precautions.

Is there a way to detect WUA downloads in progress (other than the ones you initiate) or prevent them from installing after the download completes? (I hoped that using Pause would do the latter, but it doesn't seem to.)

re: How to avoid OS reboot prompt when installing the .NET Framework 3.5 on Windows Vista

astebner — Tue, 15 Jan 2008 03:38:35 GMT

Hi Jsn_segal - I had expected that the Pause method would prevent Automatic Updates from proceeding to install an update after it got done downloading in this type of scenario. I will try to ask around and see if I can find someone who works with the WUA APIs more closely to see if there are any options for handling that scenario.

re: How to avoid OS reboot prompt when installing the .NET Framework 3.5 on Windows Vista

astebner — Mon, 21 Jan 2008 21:34:11 GMT

Hi Jsn_segal - I discussed this scenario with a few folks who work on the WUA APIs and Automatic Updates here at Microsoft. They indicated that there is not a way to detect that an Automatic Updates download is in progress, but that Automatic Updates will not proceed to the installation phase for an update if Pause was called.

re: How to avoid OS reboot prompt when installing the .NET Framework 3.5 on Windows Vista

Marshall — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 05:56:29 GMT

My setup application has to pre-install the .NET Framework 3.5 and ran into the same issue that the reboot prompt dialog shows up.

Using the IAutomaticUpdates::Pause and IAutomaticUpdates::Resume, the dialog disappears but even worse, it will reboot while my setup application is still running without any warning.

I called the IAutomaticUpdates::Pause at the first beginning of the setup application and called the IAutomaticUpdates::Resume at the end of the setup application. The rebooting happens before calling the IAutomaticUpdates::Resume.

Can anyone tell me how to work arround this issue? It has been a testing blocker right now.

Thanks!