• Sign in
 
  •  
  • MSDN Blogs
  • Microsoft Blog Images
  • More ...
Search
Tags
  • .NET
  • Altova
  • blogging
  • code samples
  • Codeplex
  • Custom XML
  • DII
  • DIS29500
  • ECMA-376
  • IBM
  • Java
  • Monarch
  • ODF
  • Office 2007
  • OpenXMLDeveloper.org
  • PHP
  • Redmond
  • SharePoint
  • System.IO.Packaging
  • TechEd
  • UOF
  • VSTO
  • Windows
  • WordprocessingML
  • workshops
Archives
Archives
  • January 2012 (1)
  • October 2011 (1)
  • July 2011 (2)
  • April 2011 (1)
  • March 2011 (3)
  • December 2010 (1)
  • August 2010 (1)
  • June 2010 (1)
  • May 2010 (1)
  • April 2010 (3)
  • March 2010 (1)
  • November 2009 (4)
  • October 2009 (1)
  • September 2009 (2)
  • July 2009 (2)
  • June 2009 (4)
  • May 2009 (5)
  • April 2009 (4)
  • March 2009 (4)
  • February 2009 (2)
  • January 2009 (4)
  • December 2008 (4)
  • November 2008 (3)
  • October 2008 (4)
  • September 2008 (3)
  • August 2008 (2)
  • July 2008 (5)
  • June 2008 (7)
  • May 2008 (5)
  • April 2008 (8)
  • March 2008 (14)
  • February 2008 (15)
  • January 2008 (13)
  • December 2007 (12)
  • November 2007 (5)
  • October 2007 (9)
  • September 2007 (6)
  • August 2007 (10)
  • July 2007 (9)
  • June 2007 (8)
  • May 2007 (12)
  • April 2007 (14)
  • March 2007 (12)
  • February 2007 (10)
  • January 2007 (17)
  • December 2006 (14)
  • November 2006 (10)
  • October 2006 (11)
  • September 2006 (12)
  • August 2006 (12)
  • July 2006 (12)
  • June 2006 (23)
  • May 2006 (14)
Common Tasks
  • Blog Home
  • Email Blog Author
  • About
  • RSS for comments
  • RSS for posts

ODF Spreadsheet Interoperability

Doug Mahugh - Office Interoperability
MSDN Blogs > Doug Mahugh > ODF Spreadsheet Interoperability

ODF Spreadsheet Interoperability

Doug Mahugh
5 May 2009 5:58 PM
  • Comments 60

Rob Weir posted on his blog a couple of days ago an Update on ODF Spreadsheet Interoperability.  I think it’s great that he has brought up spreadsheet interoperability, and specifically the issue of formulas, which seems to be the main thrust of his post.  I mentioned on the day of our SP2 release last week that “I’ll be doing some blog posts that get down into more of the technical details, to help explain some of the engineering decisions that we made in our implementation,” and Rob’s post is a good starting point for that conversation.

For those who only want to read the first two paragraphs of this very long post, here’s a summary:

  • ODF’s lack of spreadsheet formula syntax creates some interoperability challenges;   Because ODF 1.0 and 1.1 do not support formulas, all ODF spreadsheet implementations are application-dependent
  • We’ve worked hard to overcome these challenges in ways that provide accurate results and predictable interoperability
  • We have been fully transparent about the decisions we’ve made in our ODF implementation, both in terms of the guiding principles we’ve followed and also the specific details published in our implementer notes 
  • The Open Formula specification is not yet a standard, so we do not support it in its unfinished state, but we will look closely at Open Formula when it becomes a standard and make a decision then about how to best proceed

Before I get into the details, I think it’s worth noting that there’s nothing new here.  The challenges of ODF’s lack of formula specification have been around for a long time, and many people saw the current situation coming.

Nearly three years ago, Stephen McGibbon had a good post covering the situation, which is worthwhile reading for some background on how we got to where we are today.  As you can see from the quotes in Stephen’s blog post, many people in the ODF community – and the broader standards community – were dismayed at the decision to not include formula syntax in ODF.  Others outside of Microsoft also pointed out the problem years ago.  Rob’s blog post, as well as this post, are excellent examples of the sorts of interoperability challenges that those people saw coming as a result of the decision to not include formula syntax in the ODF standard.

Testing Methodology

The first thing I did upon reading Rob’s post was to try to follow his steps for myself, so that I could understand the context of his findings.  Here’s the methodology he describes in his post:

The test scenario I used was a simple wedding planner for a fictional user, Maya, who is getting married on August 15th. She wants to track how many days are left until her wedding, as well as track a simple ledger of wedding-related expenses. Nothing complicated here. I created this spreadsheet from scratch in each of the editors, by performing the following steps:

  • Enter the title in A1 "May's Wedding Planner" and increased font size to 14 point.
  • Enter formula = TODAY() in B3 and set US style MM/DD/YY date format/
  • Enter the date of the wedding as a constant in cell B4, also setting date format.
  • Added simple calculations on cells B6-B8, to calculate days, weeks and months until the wedding.
  • A11 through E16 is a simple ledger of the kind that is done thousands of times a day by spreadsheet users everywhere. Once you have the formula set up in column E (Balance = previous balance + credits - debits) then you can simply copy down the formula to the new row for each new entry

Sounds simple enough.  So I fired up Open Office 3.0.1, and followed those steps.  The resulting spreadsheet looked like this:

image

Then I saved the document, by clicking File/Save and then typing in a filename:

image

So far so good.  Next step, I tried opening the document in IBM Lotus Symphony version 1.2.0.  Here’s what I saw:

image

And then I opened the same document in Excel 2007 SP2, and here’s what I saw:

image

This is a great example of a common ODF spreadsheet interoperability challenge, and two different ways of dealing with it.  The challenge is caused by the fact that Open Office writes formulas in a syntax that is unknown to Symphony and Excel.  Open Office, for reasons I don’t understand, has decided to use as their default formula syntax the unfinished Open Formula specification, which is neither approved nor published by OASIS – not even out for public review yet.

So what do Symphony and Excel do about this challenge?  The answer is that Symphony preserves the (unrecognized)  formula markup, and Excel preserves the cached values.  (A quick aside for those who don’t know: spreadsheets typically store both the formula and the value resulting from the most recent recalculation.)

Getting back to Rob’s initial premise of this being a typical wedding-planning exercise, if Maya were to send this spreadsheet to a person using Microsoft Excel SP2, that person would see the values as shown above.  They’d know at a glance what day was ‘today’ when Maya made the file, and that the ledger balance that day was 5500.

But if Maya were to send this spreadsheet to a person running IBM Lotus Symphony, they’d see only the formulas.  Perhaps an ODF markup expert like Rob would be able to massage that spreadsheet into something usable, but most people would find it a bit hard to conceive of what it means for a wedding to be “of:=B4-B3” days away, or for there to be a ledger balance of “of:=E15+C16-D16” dollars.

So what does Rob’s test matrix show for these two scenarios?  Oddly, it labels Open Office to IBM Lotus Symphony interoperability for this scenario as “OK” and it labels Open Office to Microsoft Office SP2 interoperability as “Fail” (with a red background for added emphasis).  Now, I know Rob works for IBM and probably wants to portray Symphony in the best possible light, but is that a reasonable assessment of the interoperability we’ve just seen above?

After further investigation, though, I think I see what Rob may have actually done to get the result in his table.  He seems to have included some steps that aren’t documented in his blog post:

  • In Open Office Calc, he went into Tools, Options, Load/Save, General.
  • For “ODF format version” he changed the setting from “1.2 (recommended")” to “1.0/1.1 (OpenOffice.org 2.x)”
  • The dialog then warned him that “Not using ODF 1.2 may cause information to be lost.”
  • He clicked OK to save the change.

Here’s how it looks, for those who don’t have Open Office handy:

image

After following these steps, Rob was then able to create a spreadsheet that stores formulas in the undocumented non-standardized syntax that was used by old versions of Open Office.  Symphony, being simply a fork of an older version of the Open Office code base, is able to understand those formulas, so it can load both the values and the formulas themselves.

It’s worth noting what the OpenOffice.org developers have to say about this option that Rob has apparently used for his interoperability testing:

image

So it sounds like there isn’t any single version of ODF that will provide compatibility across all versions of Open Office and Symphony.   You can use the “may cause information to be lost” option if you want to do a demonstration of formula interoperability with ODF, but if you want to demonstrate text-bullet interoperability, you may need to use another option.

And what does Excel 2007 SP2 do with the document saved in this alternative format?  Exactly the same thing it does with Open Office’s current default format: it displays the data, so that the document user can see the results of the last recalculation of the spreadsheet, and it ignores the formulas that are written in a non-standardized syntax that Excel doesn’t support.  I think that’s a pretty reasonable approach, when a spreadsheet application comes across non-standardized formula syntax: show the last recalculated result, thus preserving the data, and don’t try to guess at the semantics of undocumented formula markup.

Why Doesn’t Office 2007 SP2 support Open Office formula syntax?

That’s a logical question to ask, in regard to how SP2 handles formulas.  To answer it accurately and completely, we should distinguish between the two formula syntaxes that Open Office uses.

The first is the syntax they use in their non-recommended “1.0/1.1 (OpenOffice.org 2.x)” setting.  This is an undocumented, deprecated syntax, and therefore not a reliable mechanism for formula interoperability.  Despite what you may read on some blogs, it is not the same syntax as used by Excel 97/2000/2003.  Open Office copied quite a bit of the feature set from Excel, and there are definitely similarities in the formula syntax, but there are also differences with regard to referencing, operators, data types, and function arguments.

The other formula syntax that Open Office supports is the Open Formula syntax, which will eventually appear in ODF 1.2.  This syntax has not yet been approved by a standards body, nor has it undergone the 60-day public review period that OASIS requires prior to approval and publication.  It may go to public review soon, but it won’t be a standard until later this year at the soonest, and the details may change as a result of the remaining TC work and the public review process.  (According to recent discussions in the ODF TC, we may send the other parts of ODF 1.2 out for public review first, to allow more time to finish up Open Formula.)

In Office’s implementation, we haven’t chosen to support the draft Open Formula spec (as Open Office currently does), because we have certain obligations when we ship software that don’t apply to open-source projects like Open Office.  We need to test and verify behavior to a degree that’s not possible without final, fixed documentation that is believed to be 100% complete and accurate.  When Open Formula is completed, standardized, and published, we'll be looking at that as the future path for enabling formula interoperability in ODF spreadsheets.  But we’re not there yet; ODF 1.2 is not done, and not even ready for public review.

It’s interesting to note that we have discussed this very issue at a DII workshop.  Last July, we had a workshop in Redmond, with attendees including other ODF implementers, members of the ODF TC, standards professionals, and others.  In the roundtable discussions, I brought up our approach to formula support as outlined above, and asked for feedback.  Although it was not 100% unanimous, there was clear consensus among most of the participants in the discussion that they did not want us to implement a non-standard formula syntax in anticipation of it becoming a standard.  “Putting the cart before the horse” in that manner was seen by many as a possible source of future interoperability problems, rather than a solution to them, and we took that feedback into consideration.

As I’ve covered before, we feel that thorough documentation of implementation details is a cornerstone of document format interoperability.  We’ve published detailed implementer notes for our ODF implementation, and on the matter of formulas (which are stored in the table:formula element), here’s what our implementer notes have to say:

The standard defines the attribute table:formula, contained within the element <table:table-cell>, contained within the parent element <office:spreadsheet \ table:table-row>

This attribute is supported in core Excel 2007.

1. When saving the table:formula attribute, Excel 2007 precedes its formula syntax with the "msoxl" namespace.

2. When loading the attribute table:formula, Excel 2007 first looks at the namespace. If the namespace is “msoxl”, Excel 2007 will load the value of table:formula as a formula in Excel.

3. When loading the table:formula attribute, if the namespace is missing or unknown, the table:formula attribute is not loaded, and the value “office:value” is used instead. If the result of the formula is an error, Excel 2007 loads the <text:p> element and maps the element to an Error data type. Error data types that Excel 2007 does not support are mapped to #VALUE!

And, as both Rob’s tests and mine show, that is exactly what Excel does.  It would be great if there were a place implementers could go to see these sorts of details for all major ODF implementations.

Summary

I’m glad to see this sort of public scrutiny of the details of ODF interoperability and how the underlying challenges are handled by various implementations.  As you can see, spreadsheet interoperability is a complicated topic, and in the specific case of ODF spreadsheets, there is even more complexity created by the lack of a defined formula syntax in any published version of ODF.

The good news, when it comes to formulas, is that the Open Formula specification will address this area soon.  My colleague Eric Patterson represents the Excel team in the Open Formula SC, and the very capable David Wheeler leads that group.  Much good work has been done already, and we look forward to seeing the final Open Formula spec go out for public review and then approval by OASIS.  The nearly 400 pages of formula syntax documentation in ISO/IEC  29500 (Part 1, section 18.17) enables reliable formula interoperability in the Open XML community, and soon the ODF community will have a similar level of formula interoperability.

But formulas are not the only ODF interoperability challenge.  As members of the ODF TC and also the OIC (ODF Interoperability and Conformance) TC, both Rob and I – and many others – will need to work together to enable better interoperability in areas including tracked changes, mail merge, application settings, and others.  Will ODF 1.2 be the most interoperable version of ODF yet?  I hope so, and there are signs that it will be.  But our work is not nearly done.

  • 60 Comments
Comments
  • ODF Spreadsheet Interoperability | ASP NET Hosting
    5 May 2009 6:20 PM

    PingBack from http://asp-net-hosting.simplynetdev.com/odf-spreadsheet-interoperability/

  • Jomar Silva
    5 May 2009 9:45 PM

    Hi Dough !

    Seeing that I really admire you and respect your work, I'll leave my own comments about SP2 to my own blog.

    I just want to contribute with your text about Rob's Mary (if we can call her that way), and her experience with MS Office 2007 and ODF... It goes that way:

    "...And Mary needs to update her spreadsheet with more updated prices, and as a good and modern bride (yep, the lady uses ODF), she always carry that precious spreadsheet on her pen drive.

    Away from her computer and seeing that MSOffice 2007 now supports ODF, Mary uses a friend's machine with MSOffice 2007 to update her spreadsheet.

    She open the document and fell very happy and comfortable when she sees "everything there", update a previous imputed price, and gets noticed that no new calculations are made... Seeing that she needs to give the machine back to her friend, she thinks "OK, I'll solve that latter, let me just save my update to guarantee that I don't lose the new price"... And she save (overwriting the original file) and close Excel.

    Latter on, when she arrive at home, she opens the document again and discover that all her formulas have magically disappeared !!!

    Crying and feeling sad about it, she thinks "Oh dear God, what my future husband will think about me, now that I was screwed by someone else....".

    Not a good end to Rob's Mary tale, isn't it ? (but a good "real world" use case about MSOffice with SP2).

    Best and cheers from Brazil,

    Jomar

  • Rob Weir
    5 May 2009 11:12 PM

    Doug, all of the spreadsheets I created and tested are in the zip file linked to from my post.  There are no additional "undocumented" steps involving saving OpenOffice 3.01 files in ODF 1.1 format.  I resent your insinuation that the test cases I used were otherwise than what I documented.

    My guess is your results differed because you used an older version of Symphony than the one I tested with.  My blog post explicitly states that I used Symphony 1.3.  You state that you used Symphony 1.2.  The goal of my test was to use the latest version of each application.  Using older versions is rather pointless, especially when the updates are free.  If you cherry pick versions then of course you will get different results.   If I wanted to play that game I could have picked the prior Excel 2007 SP1 and shown that it cannot load ODF documents at all.  But I think it is best like to show all applications in their most favorable light by using their latest versions.

    If you use the versions I indicated, the latest and greatest versions of the apps, you'll get exactly the results I indicated, using the out-of-the-box defaults of the applications, with absolutely no tinkering required.   OO 3.01 spreadsheets are properly loaded by Symphony 1.3 and vice versa.  In fact, Symphony 1.3 spreadsheet formulas appear to be read properly by all of the ODF implementations I tested, except for Excel 2007 SP2.  It appears that some vendors actually work together for interoperability rather than just work on excuses.

  • Doug Mahugh
    6 May 2009 1:59 AM

    Hi Jomar, thanks for the kinds words.  The feeling is mutual.

    Regarding Mary's spreadsheet, I think she's actually in a very good position here.  Seriously, hear me out ...

    Her future husband may have had concerns about the presence of undocumented formula markup in her document, which does not conform to any published standard.  He may have worried that this implied a lack of principles on her part; a questionable willingness to set aside open standards in pursuit of some other short-term objective.

    But now, he sees that she has removed that markup from her document, and it is 100% open-standards compliant.  And it still contains their data, the most valuable piece of the puzzle.  Hooray!  "Thank you, Mary," he says, "for assuring that we will start our life together in true conformance to open standards, with no non-standard markup in our documents."  And they live happily ever after. :-)

    Of course, after Open Formula is published, the story could get even better!

  • Doug Mahugh
    6 May 2009 2:03 AM

    Hi Rob,

    First off, let me apologize: I didn't notice that you were using Symphony 1.3.  My mistake.  I'm sure you can see how, with Symphony 1.2 installed (the currently available version from your web site at http://symphony.lotus.com/software/lotus/symphony/home.nsf/home), I had the experience that I did.

    So when will Symphony 1.3 be released?  Is there a way for me to get it now?  I'd love to do some interop testing with it.

    And regarding the good interoperability between Symphony 1.3 and OpenOffice 3.0 that you've described, you seem to be saying that that's based on the unpublished, unapproved, not-yet-ready-for-public-review ODF 1.2 spec, correct?  What happened to the importance of conformance to open standards?  Does that matter this year?

    Oh, by the way -- do you intend to update your test grid to reflect Kspread beta's ability to interoperate with Office 2007 SP2?  Or does your testing methodology only allow for pre-release versions of *IBM* products?

    Cheers,

    Doug

  • Gareth
    6 May 2009 3:14 AM

    Hi

    I checked on the IBM web site too and could only find 1.2, so it's not one of those Redmond IP filter tricks that some organizations have been known to employ ;-)

    I might try this new approach with analysts:

    Monarch .next opens all formats on earth flawlessly, will pull in 1 TB of data in 5 seconds and make your morning coffee-it's all in this table.

    Oh, you can't repro that-well of course you can't, you don't have .next.  I explicitly stated you need it.  So there ;-)

    So I suppose the only difference is that the defaults are different in 1.3 ;-)  If that's really the only difference then I think we are all allowed a bit of a laugh at your outrage.  I hope there is a bit more to it than that.  A quick overview of the 1.2-1.3 changes that explain the new behavior would be good.

    Gareth

  • Stephan Jaensch
    6 May 2009 6:59 AM

    Hi Doug,

    I find your arguments weak at best. Would a published, peer-reviewed standard be the best solution? Absolutely. Is it the only way to achieve interoperability? Of course not. Sometimes you have to simply mimick what other software does. Which is exactly what all other ODF implementations do. The only one that fails this formula test so miserably is Office 2007 SP2. Which shows the world that interoperability is possible, but it was not important (enough) to you.

    By the way, how did you manage to be interoperable with Lotus 1-2-3? A simple pointer to the published standard describing the document format (including formulas) is enough. Thanks.

    Stephan

  • Rob Weir
    6 May 2009 9:35 AM

    Doug, I'll pass you name on to our beta program people and see if they can get you a copy.

    I'd be happy to add KOffice 2.0 RC to the list, and in fact I wrote to the KOffice guys before I wrote that blog post, to see if I could get them to run some test cases, but I didn't hear back in time.  The structure of the test requires that I not only test KSpread/SP2, but test all of the other combinations involving KSpread and KSpread-authored spreadsheets as well.  When I have that info, I'll update the table.  Ditto for any other product updates that come along.  The only one that is tricky is Google, since it is not obvious when they have updated their code.  It could be different an hour from now than it is now.  That's the nature of the beast with web-based editors.  So to be safe I retest with them any time I re-test any other editor.

    The recommended approach is to conform with open standards where available and then do what ever additional work that is required to be interoperable, so long as that is not incompatible with conformance.  Using draft ODF 1.2 formulas in an ODF 1.1 document is still conformant to the ODF 1.1 standard.  First, your spreadsheet formulas are not conformant with the ODF 1.1 standard.  And second, you could have easily made them be both conformant and interoperable.  In fact you already have the code to do this from your ODF Add-in.  Using the excuse, "The standard made me do it" doesn't cut it, since it is not true.  You could have been cboth onformant and interoperable.  But you ended up being neither.

    I'd suggest that all ODF vendors add Doug Mahugh to their beta testing program.  Microsoft clearly needs some help finding their way to doing interoperability testing _before_ they ship nonconforming ODF code to millions of people.

  • Gareth Horton
    6 May 2009 11:32 AM

    @Stephan

    Hi Stephan - we have considerable experience in reverse engineering Excel binary formats and also in reading and writing OOXML spreadsheets.  The problem with aping the behaviour of canonical apps is that you can never be sure what pain updates will bring, or if observed behaviour is in fact a bug that is going to be fixed.

    In addition, if you are using subsets of functionality, you can't be sure if mimicking the subset is acceptable to other mimicking apps, who may consider some functionality you don't implement a required part of their own private, internal conformance rules.

    We have observed this behaviour in some applications that read XLSX files by trying to ape Excel 2007 behaviour, rather than the spec.  This has resulted in those applications not being able to read our valid, correct OOXML instances.  This is wrong and it is the path to madness.

    The "sometimes" you mention WRT mimicking apps is where there is no alternative, such as the old days of BIFF, where there was a spec, but it was somewhat outdated and badly documented.  With ODF and OOXML, the point is to try and leave those days behind.

    It appears that Microsoft are in a no-win situation here, as if they conform rigidly to standards they are lambasted and if they don't they are lambasted.

    Perhaps if the people that feel they are qualified to be judge and jury about how Microsoft should implement standards in software could produce a guidance document with advice on when and where they should not be rigid, then that would probably help.

    Lotus 1-2-3 compatibility was "the old days" if you like.  People like Rob and the ODF contributors can take some of the credit for "helping" Microsoft to see the light, but you have to be careful what you wish for.

    BTW, if the documentation on the ODF support had been perused, this behaviour should not have been a surprise.  

    This all may sound like minor details to large organizations with big office suite implementations and huge resources at their disposal, but having decent standards in place really helps smaller vendors like us, who often only use targeted subsets of functionality.

    In the "old days" our exports could only reliably be read by Excel and to some extent OpenOffice (+clones) but with OOXML, the audience of consuming applications can grow far more easily.

    It's like the old write once, (debug everywhere ;-) run anywhere story.  Our hope for OOXML is that it widens the population of consuming applications for our data exports.  Stab-in-the-dark application-aping is not something we can afford to do, or rely on other applications to do.

    @Rob I'm not sure what your phrase means: "conform with open standards where available and then do whatever additional work that is required to be interoperable, so long as that is not incompatible with conformance"

    Do you mean "conform with those parts of ODF that are defined, then do what OpenOffice does, which, unsurprisingly is allowed by an extremely catholic conformance clause" ?

    Or "conform to parts of standards you fancy using but feel free to mix in a bit of undefined, proprietary cruft if you like"

    Beware, it sounds like you're giving Microsoft a free rein to go back to the bad old days!

    Gareth

  • Rob Weir
    6 May 2009 1:03 PM

    Gareth, I mean that if a standard permits a dimension of variability, then once should take one's head out of one's ass and look around at other products in the market, and if the preponderance of existing implementations are already following a formula convention that is conformant with the standard, then interoperability will be greater if one also follows that same convention rather then diverging onto a non-interoperable convention.  This is especially true if that convention is already undergoing standardization in a committee of which you are a member.

    This is so obvious that you almost need to be in the habit of beating yourself on the head with a hammer to not understand this.  

  • Gareth Horton
    6 May 2009 1:30 PM

    Rob,

    I understand the pragmatic nature of this, of course, but aren't "conventions" what we are trying to avoid?

    If everyone gets too comfortable with these conventions, then it could lead to OpenFormula being redundant, with the all-too-common slide down to the simplest lowest common denominator by vendors outside the "boxing ring".

    In any case, Microsoft have to be more careful than most with their approach to standards, you might have noticed.

    As Doug said, the philosophy and guidance on the implementation was known well in advance.  Perhaps a formal request and a pass for using "conventions" instead of standards from the ODF / OOO good and the great might have enabled them to do so without fear being accused of any wrongdoing.

    Conventions of a canonical app (Office) have been deemed very bad, historically.  Equitably, conventions of a canonical app (OpenOffice) must be seen in the same light.

    However, the world still turns happily, as the vendor who created the conventions (Sun) has created a plug-in which works with Microsoft Office to perpetuate these conventions in documents produced and consumed by Microsoft Office.  

    Everyone is happy.  Now if Microsoft had made it so the plug-in would not work, giving an error message with some heavy threats about standards etc etc, then we could rightfully be up in arms.

    We still have the choice, don't we?

    Gareth

  • Rob Weir
    6 May 2009 2:04 PM

    Gareth, read my words more carefully.  I never said to not use the standard, or to use conventions instead of the standard.  I said to use common conventions to supplement the standard where needed to provide interoperability.  And this particular convention, although it may be in the OO XML namespace, is hardly an OO-specific convention.  As my tests showed, this convention is supported by every other ODF spreadsheet editor I tested, except for SP2.  So you cannot just explain it away by saying it is OO-specific.  Perhaps it originated in OO years ago. But everyone, even Microsoft's own ODF Add-in for Excel, supports that convention.  But not SP2 for reasons that have still not been explained.

  • Doug Mahugh
    6 May 2009 2:34 PM

    But Rob, couldn't that same argument be used to make a case for everyone sticking with the binary Office formats?  They were widely supported years ago, and continue to be.  And more to the point, couldn't that same line of reasoning have been used by the ODF TC a few years ago to conclude that ODF should include formula syntax compatible with the millions of documents that already existed at that time with formulas in them?

    Regarding your desire for an explanation for our decision to not support the formula syntax used by OO, perhaps you missed this paragraph above:

    In Office’s implementation, we haven’t chosen to support the draft Open Formula spec (as Open Office currently does), because we have certain obligations when we ship software that don’t apply to open-source projects like Open Office.  We need to test and verify behavior to a degree that’s not possible without final, fixed documentation that is believed to be 100% complete and accurate.  When Open Formula is completed, standardized, and published, we'll be looking at that as the future path for enabling formula interoperability in ODF spreadsheets.  But we’re not there yet; ODF 1.2 is not done, and not even ready for public review.

  • Rob Weir
    6 May 2009 3:02 PM

    Doug, the analogy would be this:  If we supported the legacy Office binary spreadsheet format, as do all spreadsheet applications that I know of, then we would look to the available specification, which Microsoft resurfaced last February after a decade's absence.  But when we look in that binary format specification we find that has no coverage of spreadsheet formulas.  Zero. Zip.  Nada.  So what should we do?  Indeed, what did we and every other vendor do in that situation?  We looked around, found what the prevailing convention was and coded to it.

    You seem to be arguing that in that situation each vendor implementing the legacy binary format should make their own choice as to formula language and create non-interoperable documents.  Does that really make sense for the customer?   Certainly move the convention into a standard.  That is what a convention is in the end -- a formalized convention.  But to replace an widely held convention and an emerging standard in a committee which you are a member of, with a divergent approach that is non-interoperable with any other vendors and indeed not compatible with your own ODF Add-in's documents, this defies reason.

  • Doug Mahugh
    6 May 2009 3:36 PM

    Well, our "divergent approach" as you call it is based on the one and only approved and published standard for formula markup that exists, as of today.

    If we're going to write formulas, that seems to me a pretty logical approach.  And when there's another published standard for formula markup, we'll look at that option as well (as I said above).

Page 1 of 4 (60 items) 1234
  • © 2013 Microsoft Corporation.
  • Terms of Use
  • Trademarks
  • Privacy & Cookies
  • Report Abuse
  • 5.6.426.415