Who does Microsoft talk to when they have questions?

Eric Gunnerson s C Compendium Who does Microsoft talk to when they | debt consolidator

Mon, 15 Jun 2009 23:22:07 GMT

PingBack from http://mydebtconsolidator.info/story.php?id=3607

Eric Gunnerson s C Compendium Who does Microsoft talk to when they | Green Tea Fat Burner

Sat, 13 Jun 2009 04:08:14 GMT

PingBack from http://greenteafatburner.info/story.php?id=1478

Re:

RebelGeekz — Tue, 28 Dec 2004 12:56:00 GMT

[http://itpeixun.51.net/][http://aissl.51.net/][http://kukuxz003.freewebpage.org/][http://kukuxz001.51.net/][http://kukuxz003.51.net/][http://kukuxz005.51.net/][http://kukuxz002.51.net/][http://kukuxz004.freewebpage.org/][http://kukuxz007.51.net/][http://kukuxz001.freewebpage.org/][http://kukuxz006.51.net/][http://kukuxz002.freewebpage.org/][http://kukuxz004.51.net/][http://kukuxz008.51.net/][http://kukuxz009.51.net/][http://kukuxz005.freewebpage.org/][http://kukuxz006.freewebpage.org/][http://kukuxz007.freewebpage.org/][http://kukuxz009.freewebpage.org/]

Eric Gunnerson just keep pumping out the cool posts...

Code/Tea/Etc. — Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:17:00 GMT

re: Who does Microsoft talk to when they have questions?

Sean Chase MCSD.NET — Thu, 18 Mar 2004 15:09:00 GMT

> If you have good unit tests,
> why do you need E&C?

There's a reason companies hire contractors: they either don't have enough perm people, budget reasons (capital vs O&M), or they don't do things correctly themselves. I see a lot of the latter any any case and it results in huge bug hunts. In a perfect world, yes...there would be a great architecture up front and lots of unit testing being done before people check things into VSS. But that happens in the minority of cases - it's not a perfect world. Iterative development doesn't always turn out picture perfect like an MSDN sample. All I'm doing is giving my own customer feedback telling the C# team that edit-and-continue would be helpful and a nice productivity tool. Whatever comes of it - fine. Either way, I still love C#, plus I'm paid by the hour. :-)

re: Who does Microsoft talk to when they have questions?

Troy Taft — Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:08:00 GMT

Remember that refactoring is primarily of interest to those who do TDD (Test Driven Development) and test their software with automated tests (like with NUnit). Without a good set of tests already in place, refactoring is extremely difficult. It is probably more important to start testing first, and then after that is in place try refactoring. At that point, you will probably find that refactoring is more fun than Edit & Continue ever was. For more info see Kent Becks Extreme Programming Explained book. C# is an excellent tool in the hands of the extreme programmer. I've been refactoring with VB .net and C# for about two years now. It's powerful.

re: Who does Microsoft talk to when they have questions?

Panos Theofanopoulos — Thu, 18 Mar 2004 12:50:00 GMT

Jeff:
Since refactoring is so much powerfull, how long will take to "refactor" VB E&C to C# E&C ?

One hour, two, one day or one week ?
When/If will be delivered, you are free not to use it

PS. The feature is called Edit & Continue and not FixSomeBug & Continue. You may not use it for debugging only

.NET Happenings #20

MasterMaq.NET — Thu, 18 Mar 2004 03:06:00 GMT

.NET Happenings #19

MasterMaq.NET — Thu, 18 Mar 2004 03:05:00 GMT

re: Who does Microsoft talk to when they have questions?

Jeff Key — Thu, 18 Mar 2004 00:58:00 GMT

Wow, this is really surprising to me. In the 3 or so years that I've been doing .NET full time, the only people I've heard complain about not having E&C are VB guys, and this was really only after .NET first went gold.

I'm not a language bigot and I don't particularly buy the argument that E&C is used by sloppy programmers, but let me ask you folks this: If you have good unit tests, why do you need E&C? No offense, but I have a hard time buying the "it's really deep in the app". If that's the excuse, you need better unit tests. The age of the monolithic application is long gone; if you can't unit test your application, don't blame Microsoft.

Given the choice between refactoring and E&C, I (and probably most people I know) would take refactoring in a heartbeat. It would make us more productive.

E&C can cause more problems than it solves. You're messing around in a stateful world, so the code you edit could very well not be operating in the context of the error you're trying to fix. Consider the following class:

class {
int _someField = 0;
double _someOtherField = 0;
public void DoSomething() {

SomeOtherMethod()

if (_someField > 5)
{
DoSomethingElse()
}

int result = YetAnotherMethod();
}

..
}

result isn't what you expect. So you go in the code, remove the call to SomeOtherMethod, or move it after the if statement, or whatever, then start execution back _at the beginning of the method_. Still the wrong answer. You then remove the call completely, run the _method_ from the start again and you get the correct result. Hooray! You continue on, assuming this bug is fixed.

Oops! You didn't know that YetAnotherMethod was altering the state of the object, which gave you the correct result on your third pass in the method because of this altered state. If you were to run the app from the beginning again, the method would fail because the nature of the state you created while "editing and continuing" could never be reproduced outside of that context!

This is a very simple example. I've seen this happen back in the VB days. A lot.

If you want to be more productive, make testable code, don't count on voodoo magic to save your ass, because it won't.