Uighur or Uyghur?

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Uighur or Uyghur?

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It hearkens back to that Persian? Or Farsi? post I did back in May of this year, and indeed some very similar issues about it exist. The question is whether the name of the language is Uighur or Uyghur....

The simplest answer (were I and all my readers to actually be the simplest people) would be to go to GoogleFight.com and discover that the web thinks of it as Uighur by a 3.3 to 1 margin. But we aren't the simplest people, or at least we try not to be. :-)

A slightly less simple answer is that of course it is not -- the name of the language is actually ئۇيغۇر, so that arguing about the English transliteration of it makes about as much sense as arguing about the best way to spell the transliteration of חנכה or معمر القذافي‎. In other words, it does not make very much sense....

Of course, one could also be really pedantic and claim that since the use of the Arabic script for the language is a relatively recent development, that even the transliteration is a translation of the original. As Omniglot point out:

Uyghur was originally written with the Orkhon alphabet, a runiform script derived from or inspired by the Sogdian script, which was ultimately derived from the Aramaic script.

From the the 16th century until the early 20th century, Uyghur was written with a version of the Arabic alphabet known as 'Chagatai'. During the 20th century a number of versions of the Latin and Cyrillic alphabets were adopted to write Uyghur in different Uyghur-speaking regions. However the Latin alphabet was unpopular and in 1987 the Arabic script was reinstated as the official script for Uyghur in China.

But such arguments are ultimately unconvincing, because in truth we do not really make up language name spellings by using such pure standards. The argument of needing the Aramaic spelling to get the "real" name becomes a clear case of reductio ad absurdum, and an argument we can discard.

As I pointed out in the later Persian? Or Farsi? Redux post, the argument there is really a transliteration for فارسی vs. a usage of a much older word for the language, in a much older civilization -- a bit like the argument of using the original Aramaic above! And while using "Farsi" for "Persian" may be like calling Spanish "Español" in English, anyone who watches Dora the Explorer (even I have a niece, you know!) may find that more and more common to be doing anyway. So the whole "connotation preference" argument seems much more reasonable and honest -- and the decision can be based on which connotation is generally preferred.

So what about Uighur and Uyghur? Neither of them holds much in the way of an obvious connotation preference, at least in English, right? And neither really has a common form used in English words -- this language, which is pronounced in English much like "wee-girl" without the L at the end, is not something that one can easily gleen from either spelling, and both look somewhat un-natural given how uncommon the forms are in English. You could make the official spelling in English Weegir and make folks in spelling bees that much happier. :-)

Of course it seems pretty common to keep words out of spelling bees that one could make a resonable case for causing an international incident over the way that the officials expect the word to be spelled, so we are spared that whole issue, in any case.

Now if you look at the language and its Turkic roots (or maybe more accurately branches), the Uyghur/Uygur spelling is more satisfying in Turkish, from the standpoint of both orthography and phonology (not to mention avoiding the violation of Turkish vowel harmony that Uighur/Uigur would be guilty of). Of course this too is not really an argument for the English spelling of the language, either.

It does appear that the government in China prefers the Uyghur spelling in many of its communications, which if it were consistent and broad based would probably be more convincing, at least in terms of a "Letting the largest person in the room settle the argument that was not all that important anyway" kind of resolution. But it seems inconistently applied there too, plus more often than not it is just 维吾尔语 there, anyway.

So is there one that is better? I guess I can see it both ways, and really have a hard time claiming it is the most pressing issue related to the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of China. Like many others, I am inclined to lack the energy to fight about which is better to use.

Vista, in the current builds I am looking at, uses Uighur, which if nothing else has the benefit of connection with the three letter ISO 639 code (uig) even though the two-letter code (ug) can obviously go either way. I suspect that this is the sort of thing that could easily change a bit between versions or not based on the passionate feelings of customers about the LOCALE_SENGLANGUAGE, just as Farsi/Persian has managed to do.

Or people might create custom locales to fix what the reasonably see as our mistakes, as I pointed out in Determining (and correcting) locale settings.

(Note: after I wrote all the above, I found a Wikipedia talk page that covers the very same issue, though it too has trouble coming to conclusions on the best spelling to choose -- if nothing else the article let me correct one point I had wrong in my initial text!)

 

This post brought to you by ئ (U+0626, a.k.a. ARABIC LETTER YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE)

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  • I hit the same question when writing a report on Uighur typography and font development earlier this year. My collaborators and I consulted a large collection of books in and about the language, and the use of Uyghur vs Uighur (plus a couple of other, rarer romanisations) seemed very inconsistent. In one case, even the same author used different conventions in different books.

    In the end, we settled on Uighur, simply on the grounds that it was more common than Uyghur, although I agree that the latter makes better Turcological sence.
  • It is strange that those who advocated using Uyghur instead of Uighur forgot about the fact that modern Uighur alphabet is still based on Arabic alphabet.  While the spelling of word 'Uighur' is a English word that has been used for many many centuries.  One doesn't have to go too far, just open up any recognized English dictionary such as Oxford English Dictionary or Random House English dictionary, would notice the word 'Uighur' is well established in ancient and modern English.  According to my understanding, 'Uyghur' spelling is more resent creation, possibly dated back to 1980 when so called Uighur New Alphabet was briefly introduced in Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region of China.  The new alphabet was abandoned after 15 or so years.  Currently,  the official Uighur alphabet is Arabic based and has nothing to do with Roman alphabet.  Therefore, it is out of question trying to change correct spelling of English word.  
  • Hi everybody ( if i mistake in speaking english ,i apologize for it ,i am not a good speaker )
    I am an Uyghur person ,
    the most right way to writing our name is < Uyghur >.
    Uighur is a wrong word , we have another latinic alphabet which we use it where nessesary ( e.g. writing email address, website name ,ect)
    The alphabet named Uyghur Latin Alphabet also ULY .
    we write Uyghur in ULY .
    and the word Uyghur must be spelled [ uygur] ,
    weegoor ,and other all wrong .
    thank you for giving an eye to my post ,
     good luck ,God will bless you !
  • A slightly less simple answer is that of course it is not -- the name of the language is actually ئۇيغۇر, so that arguing about the English transliteration of it makes about as much sense as arguing about the best way to spell the transliteration of חנכה or معمر القذافي‎. In other words, it does not make very much sense....

  • Hi teklimakan,

    The anonymous poster who quoted me has a point (well, it was my point, but it is still a valid point!). The transliteration rules are not as clearcut as everyone would apparently like....
  • Hi Mr Kaplan ( sorry ,may i call you like this )
    you are right !
    Uyghur software companies and other institutes researching and
    aranging the English title of Uyghur's Geographical Names。
      and Uyghur software companies has already pointed some problems on Vista ,and The best  spelling way of <Uyghur> was icluded . they have already sent the meterieal to microsoft , when microsoft officially anounce Vist ,maybe this problem would be solved . Now the problem fixed on Microsft ( how they do about it )
     thank you , God will bless you and me !
  • good luck everybodys...i am tursun, uygur, alturk is  my nickname,
    i am very very pleased  yours to expound a good idea an about my nationality... it'is will being resolved many our problims , this is(Uighur or Uyghur or call the uygur) the an ordinary difference of opinion.we can must of the same opinion, please yours don't stop that's auspicious help and working __this is the hopes held of yours me end my people...  many appreciation yours friendly treatment,
    all our may God be gracious, see you again
  • hi guys!
    i am very happy to see this topic.
    it is good to talk about the original name of my people.
    so the problem is how should we write  the peoples 'name?Uyghur or Uighur?
    let's lookk at how the uyghurs spell: Uyghur
    U: pronounced as u in Buddist
    y:as y in year.
    gh:there is no such consonant in english.look at the Deutsch word:
    Reise(travel),Drei(three).so gh in uyghur is pronounced as R in Deutsch.and r as in hebrew(examle:lehi tra ot (good bye))
    r in uyghur is prounced as r in russian.
    so the correct name for uyghur should be Uyghur.
  • we uyghurs prefer our name to be written as Uyghur.
    I suggest all the people write as Uyghur.
    if any problem,pelase cantact with me.
    oglumish@yahoo.com
  • there is my advice about how to spell Ughur.
    according to the above explained post,it should be spelled as /ujγur/,not /weeger/.spelling it /weeger/ is a serious mistake.
    in linguistics, we transcript it as /ujγur/.
    i wish in microsoft will take into consideration this.
    because i am a linguist.

  • I suppose I could point out the number of times in English that things are spelled neither how a linguist would transcribe them (in IPA or otherwise) nor how a regular user would sound them out?

    So that can never be the only consideration. How it has appeared in the OED is at least as big of a consideration, as are a dozen other issues....
  • Hi everybody,

    There were a long discussion about Uyghur vs. Uighur issue at the Uyghur Language Discussion Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/UyghurLanguage/message/112

    where there are many non-Uyghur linguists and Uyghurologists. The following post has finally convinced more than 90% of the members of that group.

    =============================
    I haven't weighed in to date on the Uighur versus Uyghur issue, partially since I've considered it a question of fairly minor importance, and partially since I have no strong preference myself either way. Since the question doesn't seem to have died down, however, I've thought about it a bit and have decided to send along my own proverbial two cents' worth, in the hopes that I won't make any permanent enemies thereby.

    Although normally somewhat of a traditionalist and thus fairly sympathetic to Michael's position, I also find the spelling "Uighur" to be particularly unattractive, and even un-English, regardless of its historical pedigree, and believe as well that the "Uyghur" rendering is in fact supplanting it fairly rapidly in common usage among scholars and linguists working in the field. No matter how well-established "Uighur" may be in certain writing on the
    Central Asian area, it seems to me that it has not really penetrated the active or passive vocabulary of most well-read native speakers of English, unless they be specialists on the area.

    Looking at recent publications on the language per se, I see that Reinhard Hahn entitled his book "Spoken Uyghur", while Michael Friedrich entitled his (in German) "Uyghurisch". Henry Schwarz also used "Uyghur" for his dictionary. The relevant sections in the compendium "The Turkic Languages" (again written by Hahn) uses "Uyghur", while Anne Lee's translation of the Hamit Tomur grammar is entitled "Modern Uyghur Grammar". Indiana University's Center for Languages of the Central Asian Region uses "Uyghur", Radio Free Asia uses "Uyghur", the Uyghur Dictionary Projects uses "Uyghur", etc. There thus seems to be a trend in the recent Western writing on the language and people itself toward "Uyghur", although the traditional spelling of "Uighur" obviously continues to be widely used as well.

    Given that most of the Turkic languages and peoples are not that well known to most English speakers, it strikes me as only natural that, at least in some cases, there may be in time a trend away from the more traditional spellings to ones that more closely resemble their actual native pronunciations. This is especially the case when sovereign states weigh in to have the English versions of their names changed. "Tartar" gave way some time ago to "Tatar", "Turkoman/Turcoman" has largely given way to "Turkmen", "Kirghiz" to "Kyrgyz" (no matter how strange the latter looks to English speakers), etc. "Sinkiang" is, I believe, the traditional spelling for the geographical region inhabited by the Uyghurs/Uighurs, but given the
    ascendancy of Pinyin these days, I suspect that few of us are still using that earlier spelling, and that it will eventually take on the
    patina and associations of an earlier age, just as "Hindoo" does for "Hindu", or "Mahometan" for "Muslim".

    If I'm not mistaken, the Chinese government also prefers the "Uyghur" spelling, which regardless of the tradition in English will also, I suspect, eventually lead officials and others in the wider world to adhere to that spelling over time. So although Michael is indeed correct, in my view, in saying that "Uighur" has an established place in English, it strikes me that this place is considerably less safe than it would be if the word were commonly used in English, which it is manifestly not. Given this situation, I believe that alternative renderings by interested writers, whether English-speakers or not, will likely impact the matter, and that "Uyghur" thus may well continue to compete with, and perhaps eventually win out over, "Uighur". Traditionalists may not like it, and it may indeed introduce some confusion (such as, for instance, in searching for one
    version or the other in databases and not coming up with documents using the other version, etc.), but it does seem to me that, judged on recent writing, there is a trend in the direction of "Uyghur" that may be irreversible.

    Conclusion: It is better to use "Uyghur".
  • Well, this is an interesting problem :)

    As I know, Uyghur or Uighur (let me use Uyghur) is written in three scripts world wide. Arabic Script: mainly in China;  Cyrillic script: in CIS (Commonwealth of Independent States) or ex-Soviet Union; Latin Script: a new born commonly accepted agreement/standard called "ULY" (Uyghur Latin Script)  since 2001, mainly used in Xinjiang and among the Uyghurs in exile.

    The Unicode.org website http://www.unicode.org/onlinedat/languages-scripts.html stats all but does not give script IDs. Azerbaijani and Uzbek are also written in three scripts and each scrip has an individual RFC 3066 Script Variants.  Ex:  az-latn, az-arab, az-cyrl, uz-latn, uz-arab, uz-cyrl. I think some Linux (ex: Mandriva) support this kind of scripts code, but not ug-latn, ug-arab, ug-cyrl. I have no idea wether these names are also supported in Common Locale Data Repository of Unicode.org . I have no idea about Microsoft because they are far behind or careless, there isn't even an Uyghur locale or keyboard in Win98/Win2000/XP. This may hurt Michael very badly :)

    You can find Uyghur, Uighur and Uigur everywhre. What most people cite the following sites as the main reason their fantasy does not become a reality. See  www.unicode.org and http://www.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/englangn_ascii.html , you can find them all. It seems like people are careless (may be tolerant or respectful) and don't even bother ask linguists or read more about this language.This is very messy and confusing indeed when it comes to select one between Uyghur and Uighur...

    I think GoogleFight.com idea is cool but not a good solution to this problem because there are many "garbage" articles on the web and google (born in 1998) crawls only the web pages and not entire publications. Since the question is still alive, I would suggest consulting linguists  (particularly) and/or the Xinjiang/Chinese government.

    Vincent
  • Hi Michael,

    I am going to present a paper about the Uyghur language at the 30th International Unicode Conference http://www.unicodeconference.org/bios.htm . If you are coming to this conference, please email me at warisabdukerim at yahoo dot com.

    On behalf of the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Regional Language Committee, I may also submit an official document about the Uighur vs. Uyghur issue. I am sure that this problem will be solved soon...

    Michael, if you want to know more about the Uyghur-Latin Script (ULY) mentioned above, please read this: "An Introduction to Latin-Script Uyghur", http://www.uyghurdictionary.org/excerpts/An%20Introduction%20to%20LSU.pdf .

    Regards,

    Waris
  • The accurate word must be "Uyghur". In some old English dictionaries there was a word of "Uyghur" and pronounced as "wee'ger". In recent 20 years, some tourists from USA or UK, come to XUAR, they "discover an unknown nation" and asked the uyghur people "How do you call yourself in your native language?" When they answer as "Uyghur", it usually sounds to them as "Uighur". Once an English men had asked me such question in Urumqi. When I answered "Uyghur", he immediately write it down it on his note book as "uighur" (of couse I have cerrected it). I noticed that, the word "Uyghur" sounds to English speaking people as "Uighur ". The source of this word is came from Uyghur language (of course not from other). Someone has misspelled this word into modern English dictionaries. Because he has "miss-heard" this word from the Uyghurs.   tursunbaki@yahoo.com
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