Shawn Hargreaves Blog
As of version 4.0, XNA Game Studio no longer supports point sprites.
One big reason, plus two small ones.
The big reason is that DirectX 10 and 11 do not support point sprites, so if we kept them in our API, we would be unable to someday move that API to future DirectX versions. This would violate our "break it good" goal of taking all the pain now to avoid future compatibility breaks.
It is theoretically possible to emulate point sprites using geometry shaders, but after some investigation we concluded this would be:
A smaller reason is that point sprites behave differently on Windows and Xbox, and are not even consistent from one Windows GPU to another (the max size varies, as does the result of TEXCOORD interpolators).
The final reason is that point sprites are slower than triangles on some common graphics chipsets. Hardware manufacturers are sure to keep point sprites around for DirectX 9 compatibility, but they are unlikely to spend much time optimizing what is now a legacy feature, so this performance delta will only grow over time.
If you are worried about the idea of life without point sprites, the first thing you should know is that this worried me at first, too. But I'm not worried any more. By the end of this article, hopefully you won't be either.
When we looked at why people use point sprites, we found two main purposes:
If you've been reading my blog for long, you probably already heard me mention how the first step in performance work is to measure. Using GS 3.1, I changed the particle sample to draw triangles instead of point sprites. In fact I made three versions:
All three versions used insignificantly tiny amounts of CPU time. The difference was in GPU performance:
A 30% gain from not using point sprites is pretty sweet, but an 80% penalty is painful indeed. I see more people using rotating particles than otherwise, but still... ouch!
One of the best things about my job is the chance to work with amazingly smart people. When I mailed around these performance figures, I was lucky enough that one of the graphics gurus who created the Xbox GPU driver happened to see them, and was sufficiently intrigued to spend some time looking at PIX captures of my test app. Jason discovered that my indexed triangle implementation was bottlenecked by rasterizer performance, specifically by an obscure hardware penalty which occurs if you use both center and centroid mode interpolators with a shader that is fast enough not to be bottlenecked by anything else (an extremely rare situation).
Once identified, it was trivial to remove this bottleneck, which left my indexed triangles bottlenecked by texture fetches, just like the point sprite original. Revised timing data:
Armed with these figures, removing point sprites didn't seem so painful any more.
I can't promise exactly when, but we are working on an updated version of the Particle 3D sample which shows how to use indexed triangle lists, and includes Jason's magic optimization. We will be sure to get this out by the time 4.0 ships, if not before.
Should have read more carefully.. but it is very surprising that bandwidth use is low, I would have thought it would be the bottleneck (but then this is managed and has other costs.)
Conventional wisdom is that nothing else in the system can keep up with the GPU on 360...
> Conventional wisdom is that nothing else in the system can keep up with the GPU on 360...
If the CPU was involved in updating particles and feeding them to the GPU every frame, that would most likely be true. This is why our particle system is designed to do all the work on the GPU: avoiding the CPU entirely lets it draw way more stuff with better performance.
:-) Its good when you can keep it entirly on the GPU. I can just imagine the test program, lots of near screen size cats... :-)
Hey shawn i was just wondering if you know when you will get time to do another one of these (this post was great) are we talking a few days or a over a week? are there any other people posting things like this that you know of? i checked all the links from your site (most others only update their blogs weekly or monthly) :(
Anyway great post.
> i was just wondering if you know when you will get time to do another one of these
As soon as I can get them finished, really! I'm aiming for at least a couple of a week until I run out of topics (currently have a list of 20+ things to write about :-) but it'll probably end up being more some weeks, less others, depending what else is going on!
> are there any other people posting things like this that you know of?
Michael Klucher has an active blog and writes about many Game Studio 4.0 and Windows Phone topics, too. And Ashu keeps threatening to blog about the new audio features - he hasn't actually written anything yet though :-) I'll be sure to link it here if/when he gets that going.
"I can't promise exactly when, but we are working on an updated version of the Particle 3D sample which shows how to use indexed triangle lists, and includes Jason's magic optimization. We will be sure to get this out by the time 4.0 ships, if not before."
Shawn, any update on when/if this might happen? Thanks!
I see that the XNA 4.0 version of the Particle3D sample is out, but I can't pin-point the Jason's magic optimization fix that you mention. Can you point it out for us? I assume it's a change in the shader code, correct?
> I can't pin-point the Jason's magic optimization fix that you mention.
It is changing the two pixel shader input interpolators to be of the same type (both COLOR or both TEXCOORD), rather than one of each. This almost never makes a difference as the GPU is pretty much never bottlenecked by interpolation in any case, but for this particular shader, that was the perf limit!
Thanks for responding Shawn. I understand that you were following DirectX's lead with removing point sprite support and the PointList primitive type, but I wish it would've been kept around. I created and maintain DPSF (XNAParticles.com) which is for CPU-based particle systems. Even with the shader magic you mention, the same indexed triangle particle systems in XNA 4 typically run almost 2x slower than their old point sprite XNA 3.1 versions(non-rotating particles). Also, because we have to use 4 vertices per particle instead of 1 I quickly reach the max memory allowed in a single DrawUserPrimitives() call on the Xbox 360 (around 5000 particles), so we have to break it up into multiple Draw calls, which I still haven't been able to get working properly (forums.create.msdn.com/.../70300.aspx). Overall though I am very happy with XNA 4. Keep up the good work :)
I am using the Particles3D example as the template for my particle effects. It works great! However, I am trying to modify it to draw bullet holes that are aligned with the object surface hit. Is this the right way to go or do you recommend a different method? You can see the problem here: http://youtu.be/z4sNfcOxp1I