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Ramblings on VS SP1

Since the announcement of our SP1 release yesterday, there's been a variety of community feedback.  Some in the press, some on blogs and some in email.  I got one of those emails this morning and decided to write a few of my thoughts to share my perspective on the issues raised. It was then suggested I make a blog post out of it, so here it goes.  This is not an official Microsoft position but just some ramblings from a random person…

 

Time to ship

There's been some feedback that Soma's announcement of "3-4 months to ship SP1" seemed excessive.  Shipping an SP is a big effort for us.  It might seem like it shouldn’t be, but it is.  In particular, this SP is really large.  There are a lot of bug fixes and a pretty significant sprinkling of new features.  Further the product is big and signing off on it is a very involved process that requires each of the 30 or more teams to do a great deal of work – extensive testing across a broad matrix of platforms and software configurations, security reviews, inappropriate terminology scans (urban legend says that a few years ago someone in Microsoft got put in jail because some product referred to some unnamed island as a country.  I don't know if it's true or not but that's how seriously we take it whether or not it is), and much more.

When we think about the schedule for this kind of thing, we generally like to give about 1 month for the Beta – in order for people to have enough time to install it, try it out and report any issues they have.  There’s then some time for us to fix any issues that were reported, then patch production (which takes about a week – remember, we have a TON of different SKUs and languages), followed by a final test pass (which takes about 2 weeks).  When the bits are finally compiled and tested, there’s another week or two of production that ultimately places them on a download site for people to access.

It’s a lot of things.  Most of them don’t take all that long but when you add it up, it takes a while.  As far as broadcasting dates, we’re generally loath to do that because things change and people get mad at us when we don’t do what we said.  As a result, when we do give dates, we tend to pad them a little bit for the unexpected.  If everything goes according to plan, then I expect the schedule will be on the short end of Soma’s range.  If something goes awry, it might not be.

We are making a concerted effort over the next 6 months to a year to look at the processes we use to produce service packs and optimize them.  Personally, I am an advocate of shipping an SP for the last major released version every 6-9 months.  Doing this would require us reducing the time to ship an SP from the approximately 6 months it takes now to probably 3 months or so.  It’s something we are looking into.

Vista support

I think we are seeing some reaction to this on all fronts.  People raise the question of whether or not VS’s stance on Vista support for its various versions signals a problem with Vista compatibility.  I do not believe so.  VERY few applications are like VS.  The problems VS has running on Vista generally aren’t with “normal” application like code.  The single biggest source of issues is the area surrounding the debugger.  Not many applications are that invasive.  Vista made a lot of changes to really try to lock down on security to further reduce vulnerability.  Those kinds of changes really run contrary to the kinds of invasive things a debugger needs to do.  Innovation requires change and change results in work.  The Windows team goes to UNBELIEVABLE lengths to keep compatibility with previous applications and well beyond what you might expect.

Like you, we have resource constraints.  It might look like Microsoft is a huge company with infinite resources but, unfortunately, it’s not.  We are just as constrained as everyone else in the world as to how we invest our time and money.  I can assure you we have spent a lot management time wringing our hands over what the right thing to do here is.  All work we do comes at an opportunity cost.  For example, if we go back and make VS2002 work on Vista, we have to trade that off against not making progress on Orcas.  Ultimately, we balanced all of these trade-offs and came up with this plan.  The plan is to support our run time environments on Vista and to support VB6, VS2005, Orcas and all future versions.  Would it be good to support more?  Yes.  Is it worth the opportunity cost?  We think it isn’t.

Of all the things Microsoft is and isn’t, we are very responsive to customer feedback.  We made the decision that we think is in the best interest of our customers.  If customers come back broadly and tell us they disagree, then we’ll reassess that decision.  All of our goals here are the same – making everyone as productive and successful as possible.  I don’t mean to sound patronizing here – I really believe it.

Brian

Published Wednesday, September 27, 2006 8:37 by bharry

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# re: Ramblings on VS SP1

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:01 by G.T.
Thank you for the explanation, I agree with that a 100%, it is much more important for me having a new VS.NET that supports .net 3.0 with more features, than supporting VS 2002.

# re: Ramblings on VS SP1

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:19 by ping pong
What about VC6? You only mention VB6 here.

Lack of VS2003 support on Vista is a shame.

# Alcuni commenti di Brian Harry sul post di Somasegar e sulle reazioni della gente...

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:20 by Lorenzo Barbieri @ UGIblogs!

# re: Ramblings on VS SP1

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:46 by jesam
"There are a lot of bug fixes and a pretty significant sprinkling of new features."
This proves again that you guys hardly listen to us.  I've been waiting for this SP since VS 2005 got shipped because as it is now, it is unusable.  Now it becomes clear why it took so long and will take even longer.  It's a service pack, it's meant to fix the bugs that make VS 2005 unusable (like the designer bug that makes the designer show an exception stack trace most of the time).  I don't want any new features, I want to finally be able to use what you guys did (not) deliver last year.
The new features can wait.

"For example, if we go back and make VS2002 work on Vista, we have to trade that off against not making progress on Orcas.  "
Well, I want VS2003 on Vista, not VS2002.  As it is, I have to convert my project from 2003 to 2005 just to be able to run Vista.  And since 2005 has been unusable for the last year, I now have even more to convert.  So no Vista for me in the foreseeable future, and all this so you guys could get Orcas out the door.  I don't care about Orcas, I haven't even gotten to Whidbey yet.

Please, just concentrate on Whidbey.  For all I care, bring out an SP1 now, and an SP2 to make it work on Vista in 6 months.  If you have new features that are now part of PS1, take them out, put them in some ValuePack but don't let them delay the SP1 any longer.  I feel like the while .NET thing which I love very much is sinking in versioning hell because first it was tied to SQL Server, and now it's tied to Vista, while all I want right now is a Whidbey version that works, so that all that worked in VS2003 also works in VS2005.

Jens

# re: Ramblings on VS SP1

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 9:50 by Nick Nelson
I know a lot of the time those of us who are satisfied with the product don't speak up enough.  Is VS 2005 perfect? No.  Does it have bugs that VS 2003 doesn't have? Yes.  Does VS2005 frustrate me at times? Of course.  But, when you look at the entire picture, VS 2005 is the best development environment you have ever put out, and I'd take it and all its bugs anyday over an older Visual Studio or VB6.  You should see some of the things we're doing with it that would never be feasible with VS 2003.  

Keep up the good work, I think Microsoft is doing a great job walking the tightrope.

# re: Ramblings on VS SP1

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:02 by Demy
Glad to see that Microsoft is listening to customer's feedback, you're wonderful on this. We're all worried on listening that VS2003 will not be supported on Vista, because our customers have lots of applications that works on .NET 1.1 and the migration will not be soon.
Is it so difficult to support VS2003 on Vista?

# The first official reaction about Vista and Visual Studio support

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:19 by STEFANO DEMILIANI
The first official reaction about Vista and Visual Studio support

# re: Ramblings on VS SP1

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:25 by Niall
I can't believe people could complain about compatibility of VC6 on Vista, let alone VS 2002 and 2003. For 2003 I can see some small case for Vista compat being worthwhile, but I don't think it's worth the effort. 2002, forget it, the only reason you'd still be using it is because you're too cheap to upgrade. So go download the express editions of 2005.

But VC6? It's already impressive that they decided it was worth the effort to do VB6. People complain that it takes too long to get an OS like Vista out the door, laugh at the shipping delays, etc etc etc, then complain if they can't use GWBASIC on it. If you've read the blogs of people like Raymond Chen, you realise how much effort MS goes to to maintain compatibilty with old apps, even to the point of debugging third party software, finding bugs and chaning windows' behaviour to prevent the bug from causing problems.

Maintaining backwards compatibilty adds a massive (dead) weight to the product and its development. What's the point in compat with something like VC6? There'd probably be more developers working on the compat in MS than there would be taking advantage of it in the marketplace.

# re: Ramblings on VS SP1

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 10:41 by Sam Jack
From my point of view, you have made the best decision. I think VS2005 is the best IDE I've worked with, and I don't think VS2002/3 support on Vista is worthwhile.

# re: Ramblings on VS SP1

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 12:52 PM by bharry
Clearly a lot of passion here on both sides.  My example of VS2002 support compared to Orcas work was clearly designed to exaggerate the point.  Several people have asked why not VS2003?  It's clearly a more relevant question.  The analysis comes down to the same thing.

I know it might be surprising (it would be to me if I weren't here - scratch that - it's still surprising to me :)) how much time is involved in producing a service pack.  "Code complete" for SP1 was in about April (if I recall correctly).  One of the issues that has complicated SP1 has been that it's the first for 2005.  Since we've already had one for 2003, the second would be easier but it would still take many months.  To put this in perspective, at one point I saw an estimate from the debugger team that VS2005 Vista support would take something like 7-10 weeks of effort and that's on top of the tax to test and ship the SP.  I have to imagine the VS2003 effort would be on the same order of magnitude.

One of the approaches I've seen people use is running VS2003 inside a VPC/Virtual Server hosted on Vista.  It's clearly not a perfect solution but it might be viable for some.

So ultimately, the 2003 decision comes down to cost/benefit.  Based on what I see in this thread, there's a big of a mixed set of feedback but of all the things we could have supported but didn't - VS2003 stands out.  It's certainly feedback we'll keep in mind as more people give us feedback in the coming weeks.

I'll take exception to the claim that VS2005 doesn't work.  I think everyone acknowledges that there are bugs.  I suspect what part of the product you use and how you use it may color your perspective on how bad the bugs are.  I, for one, use the product on a regular basis and am very successful with it - and yes, I'm sometimes really annoyed when I hit a bug.

I'd also like to address the issues of features in service packs.  Personally I am a BIG fan of it.  Microsoft, as a policy, has taken different perspectives at different times.  Historically Windows used to put a lot of features in SPs and we heard a lot of customer feedback that people were very upset at the "new" bugs that got introduced in the process.  They wanted every service back, to a first approximation, to only fix bugs and not introduce any new ones.  As a result Windows, has dialed back a lot on features in SPs.  VS has historically been on the other end of the spectrum - SPs have not had any features, only bug fixes.

I have been an advocate in recent history of VS becoming more open to adding features in service packs.  In TFS we added 4 in SP1.  We have to be very careful what features we choose to add.  They have to be scoped so that they fit in a short period of time.  They have to be chosen to have minimal risk of introducing "new" bugs.  We also need to make sure we are getting maximum customer value for the time and risk taken.  The time between our major releases is pretty long (a topic for a whole 'nother thread if you want :)) and service packs are really our best opportunity to deliver value in a way that fits in with reasonable servicing and support policies on a more rapid frequency.

There is concern that features are the reason SP1 has taken so long.  I am positive that is not the reason.  As I say, the code was "complete" a long time ago.  We tend to be more test constrained than anything else.  I've no doubt that the features cost us something but the incremental cost of them is pretty small.  The way I think about it is that the fixed tax of releasing an SP (or any release) is pretty high.  It is incumbent upon us to pour enough value into that release to warrant the cost to us and to you (the time you have to wait).

I'm not ignoring the question about VC6.  I'm virtually certain but I've sent mail to the person who owns the languages teams so that I can be certain the rationale before I comment.

Sorry for the length...

Brian

# New Team Foundation Server features in Service Pack 1 Beta (and Visual Studio 2005 SP1 Betas)

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 5:10 PM by Robert Burke's Weblog
The Visual Studio 2005 Service Pack 1 Beta has just been released.  Here's the official announcement. ...

# re: Ramblings on VS SP1

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 5:51 PM by Cody
Please strongly reconsider and support VS2003 on Vista.  There are many 2003 users out there.  By not supporting it you are sending mixed messages and giving us second thoughts about how viable the .Net platform is for us developers.  Due to all the issues with VS2005, 2003 is still my IDE of choice.  Not supporting 2003 means that I will be left holding the bag and forced to upgrade every few years.  This does not make sense for anyone with a budget mindset for software development.

# re: Ramblings on VS SP1

Wednesday, September 27, 2006 7:53 PM by HintonBR
Brian thanks for the openness - hearing the rationale helps.  My major projects are still on 2003, but I like the stance that MS is taking - especially with the changes being brought in Vista with .NET 3.0 - etc... -

Virtual PC is now free and so Vista users who want to use 2003 should have no problem putting things on an image and they are ready to go - the runtime is supported on Vista so their apps can run on Vista.

Thanks for the great stuff you guys are putting out.

# re: Ramblings on VS SP1

Thursday, September 28, 2006 6:05 by ping pong
> Maintaining backwards compatibilty adds
> a massive (dead) weight to the product
> and its development. What's the point
> in compat with something like VC6?
> There'd probably be more developers
> working on the compat in MS than there
> would be taking advantage of it in
> the marketplace

Nial, the fact that you, your friends and your friends' friends don't use VC6 doesn't mean that product is not used anymore. We still have many customers who rely on VC6/VS2003 as their development platform, and don't care about the goodness known as VS2005.

And keep in mind Microsoft is adding dead weight to support VB6 IDE and runtime. So please try to think out of the enthusiastic MS supporter box, OK?

# re: Ramblings on VS SP1

Thursday, September 28, 2006 6:08 by ping pong
@bharry:

> I'll take exception to the claim that
> VS2005 doesn't work.  I think everyone
> acknowledges that there are bugs. I suspect
> what part of the product you use and how
> you use it may color your perspective on
> how bad the bugs are.

The problem I have with bugs in VS2005 is this: you ship the release which has significantly more bugs than previous releases, then you delay the promised service pack, while still commiting large resources to new version of the product. Do you really expect us to believe that Orcas is going to have better quality? This is not the rhetorical question.

# Na Vistu u DEV teamu zapomeňte

Thursday, September 28, 2006 6:46 by Michalův zápisníček
"Soma" Somasegar , Corporate Vice President Developer Division určitě mnoho lidí svým oznámením nepotěšil.

# re: Ramblings on VS SP1

Thursday, September 28, 2006 10:37 by Marcos
Brian:

Thanks for hear our feedback, I´m glad that somebody explain to us a bit more about your schedules.

I completely understand you about the problems of releasing a ServicePack, but why you don't consider this ?

- make public all the HotFixes
- Add a list with all the big bugs and the HotFixes that solve that problem.
- We hear in somple place that the String.IsNullOrEmpty has a BUG !! you need to publish a public HotFix for that !!
- Talk a bit more about the .NET framework SP, because we can install the SP for VS but our customers need the .NET framework SP.
- Show to the marketing team what the developers think and fell about the new MS position that try to impose WinVista for all !!!
- Maybe I don't use WinVista until 2010 so why we need to pay for VS for WinXp while you only think in vista, maybe you need to reduce the price of VS if you think in that way...

We have a ton of problems with VS2005 and with VS2003 at the begging. But the .NET 2.0 framework is what worry us more, there are a lot of time that our apps hang up and said that an ilegal operation was done and ask for our users to send a report to MS !!! How can our applications send mails to MS this is too bad !! that we revert the upgrade and keep using VS2003.

Just my constructive 2 cents
I really love .NET please don't make us wrong with it.
Thanks a lot for the explanation
Marcos

# re: Ramblings on VS SP1

Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:03 PM by bharry
Many things to respond to.  I'll do my best to address them.

VC6 support - I confirmed what I believed to be true.  VC6 was not strongly considered because both the standard and extended support windows have expired on that product.  The support windows for VB6 were extended due to transition difficulties between VB6 and VB.NET.  There really were not analogous transition issue for VC, so the support windows were left as normal (which is something approaching 10 years - I forget the exact number).

VS2003 I can't promise we'll change our position, but I can promise we'll keep revisiting it as we learn more about how many customers feel it is necessary and how palatable the work arounds are.

As for whether I expect you to believe Orcas will have better quality than VS2005, I can't really say what I expect.  I believe Orcas will have even better quality than VS2005.  At the same time, I believe VS2005 had pretty good quality over all.  I do agree that in retrospect it was down from the quality we achieved in VS2003.  I think SP1 is going to close that gap.

We've done some internal analysis to try to understand why the quality of VS2003 was better than the initial quality of VS2005 and have made some big changes to try to improve it.  If you've followed Microsoft blogs, you've probably heard about a new development cycle feature we have called "MQ".  It is a quality improvement focused milestone.  It focuses both on known bugs and on improving our processes and efficiency around our development and quality assurance processes.  As part of MQ after VS2005, we revisted every bug that had ever been reported and fixed everything we thought was significant.  It's the first time we've ever made such a sweeping pass to improve address our bug back log.

Some of these fixes (for the most serious issues) went into SP1.  The rest will be in Orcas.  Further, we have instituted new processes to prevent a new bug backlog from forming - requiring that we fix them as we go rather than saving them to the end.

Marcos, you've asked for a lot of things - I'll try to cover them :)

All HotFixes are publicly available.  Anyone who hits and issue can contact customer support and request a hot fix.  Further we write and publish Knowledge Base (KB) articles about many of them.

The KB articles are this list and can be searched on MSDN.

Hmm, I'm highly suspicious that String.IsNullOrEmpty has any serious bug.  If you could share with me the details, I can investigate it.

What do you want to know about the .NET Framework SP.  We generally ship .NET Framework SPs more frequently than Visual Studio SPs for exactly the reasons you cite.  The impact of framework issues are broader and harder to work around.  We also release what we call "GDRs" or General Distribution Releases for the framework which contain roll-ups of many of many of the hotfixes that have been released and publish them through our update sites.

I'm not sure what you mean about forcing you to pay to use VS on Vista.  I don't think anyone is asking you to pay for that beyond the cost of purchasing VS to start with.  All of these updates are provided to customers at no additional charge.

Brian

# re: Ramblings on VS SP1

Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:25 PM by Niall
Pingpong: My point with VB6 has been covered by Brian - VB6 is current still supported in some form, while VC6 is not, and there is a much bigger jump from VB6 to VB.Net than there is from VC6 to VC7 (from my limited knowledge).

MS isn't saying that people can't use VC6 any more, they're simply not providing support for VC6 on Vista. Which, considering that it's not supported at all, seems to make sense to me.

People can still develop on these platforms using XP (either normal install or VPC). So again I say considering the number of developers who would absolutely must develop on VC6 on Vista and couldn't possibly upgrade to at least one of the free editions of VS 2005, versus the benefit it would bring MS (no income, that's for sure), and the community (most of which is fast forgetting what VC6 was like)... what's the point?

Brian: It's good to see a changing attitude towards closing off bugs earlier. From my experience, it seems if you really want a bug fixed in the next version, you have to raise it through PSS and escalate through almost endless transfers and redirects until you get a hotfix now. Just to ensure someone will fit it now. Otherwise you can report it to the product feedback center and run the risk of it getting marked as "Won't Fix" or slipping the deadline. The problem with bugs missing the ship date is that as has been stated on many MS blogs, bugs that become expected behaviour don't get fixed, as they'll just break existing apps next time. So for a lot of bugs, Beta is their only chance to get fixed.

# re: Ramblings on VS SP1

Thursday, September 28, 2006 1:56 PM by Jeff Gilbert
This is one of those decisions that probably makes sense in the boardroom, but makes absolutely no sense to the rest of us, your consumers.

VS 2003 is the last product. It was only replaced a year ago. A year ago! We're not talking about carrying dead weight for a decade, we're talking about the fact that most upgrade cycles are 2-3 years+ for new technologies and your developers, the ones you begged and pleaded with to move to .NET in the first place, are now getting left out in the cold.

Yes, we can choose not to move to Vista, but for the most part solutions providers depend on having experience with the latest stuff. I think you're going to have enough problems selling Vista without alienating your most vocal and most ardent supporters - the developers who are single-handedly responsible for your market share.

I'm willing to bet that the *vast* majority of developers still develop primarily on VS 2003. By not supporting them, you are telling them that they - and their applications - are not important. I don't think you want to piss off this particular set of people, and, at the least, I can guarantee you that they will not be buying Vista, and will not be promoting it to their clients.

# re: Ramblings on VS SP1

Thursday, September 28, 2006 2:07 PM by Marcos
Brian:

First of all thanks a lot for the fast and usefull answer.

I know about the HotFix and the support and the kb too much, but we can use our paid ours at work to call a support center and ask for a hot fix and waste minutes at our work, mainly because our company don't pay for it, paid for our production !!!

Check this post that talks about the support center and hotfixs:

http://scrappydog.com/blogs/blog/archive/2006/09/27/10031.aspx

I only found the kb article when I search for an specific keyword or error, but we don't have a place where the problems or bugs are listed in critical order, if you add some listing like this we can know about the problems before we facing them, instead of googling for the kb articles too late.


About the String.IsNullOrEmpty, here are some points to this bug advice:

http://msmvps.com/blogs/bill/archive/2006/04/04/89234.aspx

And read this please, you admit this bug:

http://connect.microsoft.com/VisualStudio/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=113102

An MVP said: "But now, here comes the cherry on the cake. MS recognizes this bug and they will fixes it soon, post Orcas. Note that Orcas is targeted for late 2007 or something."

Or search a lot more feedback here:

http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=String.IsNullOrEmpty+bug&FORM=MSNH



About the .NET 2.0
There is any Sp beta out there or public HotFixs for the framework ??
You said that you release them often but I don't hear any plan about the Sp for the framework itself.
Let me know if I´m wrong.

>"I'm not sure what you mean about forcing you to pay to use VS on Vista"

I just was trying to said, that why we must paid for a product when has a lot of problems and we don't an inmediate response, I completely agree that the VS2005 is the BEST IDE AROUND THE WORLD !!! and has developer I accept the fact that contain a lot of bug, what I don't understand is why you don't release mini Sps
I know that you need a lot of effort in testing and releasing it, but, the in Java world there are mini version changes, while in .NET we have 1.0 1.1 2.0 3.0 and so on =(

Thanks again for you explanation and time
Cheers
Marcos

# VS2003 and Vista

Thursday, September 28, 2006 7:29 PM by Mark Pearce
Brian, thanks for the transparency here - very welcome.

But I really think that the amount of time that your team (and others) is going to spend defending the VS2003 / Vista decision is going to exceed your "7-10 weeks" estimate by a LONG way.

JFDI. Really. You know it's the "right" thing to do. And you'll get some forgiveness for other issues if you do the right thing here. You're getting bombarded now over several issues, so you need to make at least one concession. And I suspect the VS2003 / Vista one is it.

# re: Ramblings on VS SP1

Friday, September 29, 2006 3:51 by Andrew Webb
I don't think a Service Pack should add new features.  This takes resources away from getting bug fixes into the hands of developers sooner.  When VS05 shipped, MS talked of shooting for a "quality milestone" sometime round about the middle of 2006 (I think).  If a "pretty significant sprinkling of new features" has been the cause of that milestone to slip to 2007, I think that's a shame and a mistake.

# re: Ramblings on VS SP1

Sunday, October 01, 2006 1:22 PM by Andre
@Niall: I guess you've never worked on a large C++/MFC project in a large company (And by large I mean millions of lines of code). There are many teams, external suppliers and many dependencies. Also many legacy projects are only maintained and more then likely will never be migrated to a newer VS version. But the applications will have to run on Vista, so it is important that VC6 will run on Vista.

Also for C++ development I guess that the VC6 users still outnumbers the VS2002 and VS2003 users. VS2002 and VS2003 is only important for .NET development.

VS2005 does have all changes to get VC6 users to migrate. We've installed VS2005 just after it's release and by today it is not in use. I use it for IDL and XML files, but not for C++ development.

And I'd say VB6 support is also very important because many (I guess again millions) legacy projects will never be migrated to .NET

# re: Ramblings on VS SP1

Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:32 PM by Brian Harry

Wow, lots more questions and comments...

I hear you on VS2003 and Vista and we will keep looking at it.  As you can see from this blog alone, there is not a unanimous opinion on this issue - even from customers.  Some are saying "it's a must have" and some are saying "spend your resources on other things".  It has been and will continue to be a difficult issue for us.

I think your points about hotfix availability are reasonable.  There's a couple of different issues - how we notify people about them and how we distribute them.  As you can read in a subsequent post, I've started an internal discussion around this.

I've read the posts on IsNullOrEmpty and it looks like a JIT bug and not a bug in IsNullOrEmpty (hard to imagine how it could be it's so simple).  I've talked to the CLR team about it.  The user visible bug was improperly marked.  The bug has been fixed and the fix will be in Orcas.  As hard as this may be to believe they say that the reason that there isn't a hot fix for this is that no one has requested it.  FWIW, I've looked at the details of the bug and I find it hard to believe that any real world program would hit it.  It is a problem with the inliner and it will only happen for amazingly trivial code.  If you add almost anything meaningful to the sample that's broken, it will stop being broken.

I mentioned in a subsequent post the that .NET Framework team is working on a VS2005 SP1 plan.  The only reason they haven't done one is that the # of requested hot fixes has been really low.

As I mentioned in an earlier comment - I really don't believe the "sprinkling of new features" had any measurable impact on schedule.  I see comments here and in some linked posts indicating that SP1 will ship "sometime in 2007".  Soma's blog says 3-4 months.  3 months from now is Dec 2006.  4 months is Jan 2007.  While I may not be proud of how long it takes to ship these things, let's not go imagining it's worse than it actually is.

Brian

# re: Ramblings on VS SP1

Thursday, October 05, 2006 5:51 by John Elliott

If "progress on Orcas" is the same sort of progress that created those two-tone menus in VS2002-2005 (where for me the menu is white and the selected option is... white) or that made all the toolbar icons blurry in VS2005 when the system is using large fonts, then you bet I'd rather see the effort expended on getting VS2003 working on Vista.

# New Team Foundation Server features in Service Pack 1 Beta (and Visual Studio 2005 SP1 Betas)

Sunday, October 08, 2006 5:16 PM by Robert Burke's Weblog

The Visual Studio 2005 Service Pack 1 Beta has just been released. Here's the official announcement .

# re: Ramblings on VS SP1

Sunday, October 29, 2006 12:24 by Andrew Hilton

I'd just like to state my strong vote of approval for the decision not to support VS2003 on Vista.  VS2005 is a fantastic product and a huge advancement over VS2003.  I for one apreciate MS's efforts to improve and rework the VS and .Net architecture to provide further benefits in coming years.

I can't believe it is such a big deal to update existing customers from .net v1 to .net v2.  I've been through it, and for the most part, MS has made it a fairly painless experience.  There are always issues upgrading to a new version, may I suggest that you'll find it easier if you take off your negativity caps and work on solving the problems and working with your clients.  There's plenty of support forums to help you.

I think the biggest whinge here is developers who want the fancy shmancy vista (.net 3 no less!!) but can't cope with the change of updating their apps.  You're gonna have to do it sooner or later guys... and the sooner you do it, the sooner you'll be able to use features in .net you weren't aware of previously.  The same goes for SQL Server 2005.

For those of you who can't because of budgetary constraints or inflexible clients - there are options!  How hard is it to use virtual server anyway?  This technology is likely to improve in leaps and bounds over the coming years with built in hardware support and software enhancements - but I guess the 2003 crowd will find it hard to cope with that change too.

I find it annoying that developers resistant to change could potentially impact forward looking developers who have taken the *time and effort* to upgrade.  I can't wait to explore the new technologies in Orcas and beyond, yet may be prevented from doing so because of pointless backwards compatibilty upgrades to outdated products.

MS, congrats to you, you're one of the few companies in this industry who are prepared to take risks and consistently improve and move forward with technology.  Keep it up.  My prediction is that WPF will render most of these dev environments obsolete within 2 years anyway.

Andrew Hilton

# VS SP1 sono usciti !!

Tuesday, December 19, 2006 4:17 by Tecnologie .NET (Dotnet)

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