Thoughts on Open XML in ISO

re: Thoughts on Open XML in ISO

Patrick Schmid — Mon, 05 Jun 2006 23:36:32 GMT

Brian,

let's say after Ecma, you submit the format to ISO. I don't know how the ISO process works, but I am wondering whether the format could change during the ISO process? Meaning, could the ISO process itself alter the formats or would ISO simply accept the format as is from Ecma?

Thanks,

Patrick

re: Thoughts on Open XML in ISO

BrianJones — Mon, 05 Jun 2006 23:49:39 GMT

I'm not sure Patrick. Looking at Rick's comments and following the ODF process, I think that any changes are usually around the documentation itself and clarifying various things. That said, Rick has a lot more experience with how ISO works, so you should check out his blog and post questions there around ISO. I'm still wrapped up in the Ecma processes and shipping Office 2007 at this point :-)

-Brian

re: Thoughts on Open XML in ISO

mcm — Tue, 06 Jun 2006 02:11:20 GMT

Since ODF has been ratified as an ISO standard would there be any chance that Microsoft Office will support the format too in addition to its own new default XML format?

re: Thoughts on Open XML in ISO

BrianJones — Tue, 06 Jun 2006 02:25:51 GMT

- mcm,
We won't provide ODF support natively in Office 2007. I'm sure we'll see a number of 3rd party add-ins for Office that allow it to read and write ODF though (there was already one reported by one of those OpenDocument committee sites).

As far as whether or not it will be integrated directly into the product in a future version, I can't say as we haven't yet planned what we'll do with the next version. That will really depend on whether or not there is a significant enough demand from our customers. We've had plenty of customers ask for XML formats, but most of them don't really care whether it's ODF or not. The main thing they care about is that the format supports all of their existing documents, so there is no migration pain (which ODF does not do).

-Brian

re: Thoughts on Open XML in ISO

Sam Sethi — Tue, 06 Jun 2006 07:20:11 GMT

Google Spreadsheets was announced this morning with a terse comment about supporting Microsoft Excel file formats. Probably CSV and XLS to begin with but no support for XLM. According to Google I could search for XLS files and simultaneously edit and chat about them using Google's instant messaging program.

I'm sure Google spreadsheets will support ODF and eventually Open XML when it becomes an ISO standard.

Then using Google's Gdata (Google's Atom based xml query extension) it will make it even easier to store, find manipulate XML based spreadsheets whether they came from OpenOffice or Microsoft Office.

So to remain competitive I guess MSN/Live (desktop) Search will have to support indexing of OpenOffice ODF files. Maybe Microsoft will create Excel lite for free as a Live Gadget or Groove add-in?

re: Thoughts on Open XML in ISO

Adam — Tue, 06 Jun 2006 12:57:39 GMT

"They are generating lots of media attention, FUD and lobbeying; but it ODF and Open XML both represent a victory for universal, ubiquitous, standard generalized markup, which is what SC 34 is in large part about."

I don't see how this can be interpreted other than as FUD itself.

OpenXML does not represent a victory for a universal or ubiquitous format, as it has not been designed with re-implementation in mind.

This is, in fact, the entire crux of the difference between the goals of the groups of people behind ODF and OOX. And until any MS can convince at least one other vendor to support OOX _completely_ on a system _other than Win32_, such that OOX documents can be created, edited, exchanged, modified and re-exchanged between MS Office and similar suites on those systems with zero major interoperability problems[0], claims of universitality or ubuiquitousness are basically unsupportable.

Yes, OOX support for legacy DOC files is important. And the sorts of things that people will be able to do with their own documents in OOX that they can't do while they're in DOC format is a real bonus, and those advantages shouldn't be downplayed.

But I don't see OOX being supported on hetergenous systems in anywhere near the same sort of timescale that ODF will be, and that has very little to do with the fact that it's "made by Microsoft". In fact, due to the volume of OOX documents that are going to exist soon, I imagine that OOX support will be incredibly high on the priorities of the developers of other office systems. I just don't think they'll finish it anytime soon though.

[0] minor implementation bugs on either side are, of course, expected to begin with.

re: Thoughts on Open XML in ISO

Thomas Lee — Tue, 06 Jun 2006 13:26:34 GMT

Brian says "We won't provide ODF support natively in Office 2007. I'm sure we'll see a number of 3rd party add-ins for Office that allow it to read and write ODF though (there was already one reported by one of those OpenDocument committee sites)."

This is dissapointing. To me, this is a backing off from MS earlier committments to support open standards. Not only do customers not get PDF, but also no ODF. All we are left with are propritary and private doc formats, not the ones customers I hear asking for.

It feels like MS is sticking two fingers up at Europe and the Open Source community, while at the same time talking about delivering on customer requests and the value of open standards. The story simply sounds less than good here in Europe.

I continue to believe MS should bite the bullet and do ODF properly. We all know that Office is going to have to save in downlevel formats for a long time to come (eg. RTF, .DOC, .XLS etc). Having another one is hardly going to be a big deal, now is it. Especially as the testing time for PDF is gone, you would have extra testing cycles.

By not doing this:
a) you just annoy the politicians who now have something further to beat you up with and/or
b) others do it and do it badly causing more MS support calls anyway.

Just like MS did not do an Netware client in NT 3.1 at first, but eventually had to, MS should just go do OpenDoc and let the market decide which "open" standard they want to adopt.

My .02€ worth

re: Thoughts on Open XML in ISO

Sean DALY — Tue, 06 Jun 2006 15:46:55 GMT

> We've wanted to provide folks with
> easier ways to work with our formats for
> years now, mainly because it significantly
> increases the value of Office documents
> when they are fully documented.

If this is true, why are the proprietary binary formats still kept secret?

Were Microsoft to open the file formats, non-Microsoft applications would have far less difficulty helping users get access to their own archival data.

Unfortunately, Microsoft's shareholders are far more important than Microsoft's customers, which is why the world needs an open, unencumbered standard document format.

Sean DALY.

re: Thoughts on Open XML in ISO

marc — Tue, 06 Jun 2006 20:16:40 GMT

brian jones said: "We won't provide ODF support natively in Office 2007.
...As far as whether or not it will be integrated directly into the product
in a future version, I can't say as we haven't yet planned what we'll do
with the next version"

hurry up, do the planning !! ;-) :

http://technocrat.net/d/2006/5/26/3790
http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php?id=954149621&eid=-6787
http://www.egovmonitor.com/node/5402
http://www.sept-solutions.de/English/newsdetail.php?id=37

https://www.ebidsourcing.com/processPublicSolSummView.do?action=soltypeCd&docStatus=CLOSED&docUserId=3070&docViewType=CLOSED&docId=106466&doValidateToken=false&soltypeCd=ITP

( the last link is a 'request for info' about an 'OpenDocument Format
Plug-in for Microsoft Office Suite' issued by the Commonwealth of Massachusetts )

re: Thoughts on Open XML in ISO

Gabe — Tue, 06 Jun 2006 22:15:10 GMT

You better hurry up and add ODF support now, before some ISV beats you to it. Because if you wait 10 years and some ISV builds up a business around exporting as ODF, they'll cry about anti-competitive behavior and try to sue when you go to implement the feature yourselves.

re: Thoughts on Open XML in ISO

Bruce D'Arcus — Wed, 07 Jun 2006 20:06:18 GMT

Hmm ... one thing very much in OpenDocument's favor is its open process. Anyone can join the OASIS ODF TC and make contributions. Likewise, absent that, there's a public comment form (and TC members read those comments).

By contrast, I'm finding getting information on the new citation and bibliographiy supoprt in OXML (not well specified in the current ECMA draft), or submitting comments about them, quite difficuilt. Can you ping me Brian about clearing this up?

re: Thoughts on Open XML in ISO

Wesley Parish — Thu, 08 Jun 2006 16:14:48 GMT

Just a few comments.

Duplication of effort: there are now two different XML-based document file formats. How much effort would have been needed for Microsoft to make sure that the relevant areas where you now find incompatibilties between ODF and Microsoft Office's binary file formats, were in fact made compatible? Or in other words, how much time could have been saved if Microsoft had chosen a different path?

Open XML's MS Windows dependencies: these are raised by ODF developers as a major problem with implementing Open XML in any non-Microsoft environment. Assuming that Microsoft truly does wish to see Open XML implemented on competing products such as the crossplatform wordprocessor AbiWord, is Microsoft willing to take the steps necessary to assure open source re-implementors that it will not use those Windows dependencies against them? I mean, it's very nice that Microsoft has a covenant not to sue independent re-implementors of Open XML, but so far I haven't read of any such covenant not to sue re-implementors of ActiveX, for example. And that would be necessary to get an independent open source re-implementation of Open XML running on Linux or Solaris.

I have suggested to Jason Matusow that Microsoft submit the MS Win32 API to ECMA and thence to OSI as a standard; he's a bit dubious. I suspect that this little detail here might be a perfectly adequate reason to do so. Because Microsoft can't make that sort of mistake too often - opening the door only to slam it on people's feet - and expect to be trusted.

And lastly, from your words
"Open XML was designed around compatibility with the existing base of Microsoft Office documents. There are literally billions of documents that exist today in those binary formats, and the goal of Open XML is to allow for a seamless migration from those old formats into the new XML formats.",

do I understand that Open XML is an authoritative documentation of the MS Office file formats dating back to MS Office 97? If so, I expect it would be possible to develop ODF to close the compatibility gap by working from the Open XML documentation.

Comments?

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S??ren Thing Pedersen » Blog Archive » On the subject of double standards — Thu, 22 Jun 2006 00:19:46 GMT

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re: Thoughts on Open XML in ISO

steve — Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:22:49 GMT

Brian,

I find the tone of your blog condescending.

You make it sound as though ODF (the ISO standard) is some poor cousin which we should feel inadequate using next to your formats (which aren't even available yet!).

I use ODT files day in day out knowing that I or anyone who needs to will be able to open and edit them in the future. I also have a wide range of choices of software to edit ODF files with. The least you could do is add support for ODF in Office 2007. I assume 2007 can open text files right?, rtf? What makes ODF less useful than either of those?

"That will really depend on whether or not there is a significant enough demand from our customers"

How many requests for ODF support would make "significant enough demand"?

re: Thoughts on Open XML in ISO

marc — Thu, 06 Jul 2006 19:35:40 GMT

Monday, June 05 2006, Brian Jones said ( http://blogs.msdn.com/brian_jones/archive/2006/06/05/618089.aspx#618437 ):

"We won't provide ODF support natively in Office 2007. I'm sure we'll see a number of 3rd party add-ins for Office that allow it to read and write ODF though"

Wednesday July 05 2006, Microsoft said ( http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2006/jul06/07-06OpenSourceProjectPR.mspx ):

"[Microsoft] announced the creation of the Open XML Translator project....A prototype version of the first translator added to Word 2007 will be posted today on the open source software development Web site SourceForge
(http://sourceforge.net/projects/odf-converter)"

Brian, please be sincere when blogging here, respect your readers
why didnt you say: "i'm not allowed to say if we will or not provide ODF support"

or

"yes, we will provide ODF support in Office 12, we'll see several MSOOXML-ODF translations tools sponsored from Microsoft"

This is a marketing blog or a technical one? we must believe your words or read between lines?

-Marc

re: Thoughts on Open XML in ISO

BrianJones — Thu, 06 Jul 2006 20:22:36 GMT

Hey Marc, we've always encouraged folks to build add-ins to provide ODF support, and my statement above still holds true. Microsoft is not building ODF support into Office. Instead, we made the decision recently to support an open source project to build an add-in (just like we've been encouraging folks to do for the past year).

Sorry if it looks like I'm not being straightforward, but that was an honest statement. We are not going to build ODF support into Office. We were thinking about directly supporting an opensource project (which we've now decided to do), but I couldn't mention it yet so I didn't say anything.

-Brian

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