You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Christian Schmidt — Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:05:50 GMT

I don't think it makes the HTML WG (or other entities) look unprofessional if the public is able to see that the people behind are normal human beings that make fun of each other, make (human) errors, have different opinions etc.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Ian Hickson — Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:35:31 GMT

Hey Chris,

The WHATWG error handling rules as currently specified are as close to what IE6 and IE7 do as possible while still being implementable for Safari, Opera, Mozilla, and other browser vendors who have taken part in the work. Obviously not everything is the same (e.g. where IE6 crashes, the HTML5 spec requires something else) but by and large it is already as close to IE6 as possible. So not only would we consider doing what you describe, to a large extent, we've done it. In practice browser vendors have to do that anyway, whether it's specced or not, due to the volumes of content on the Web depending on it. It's better to have a spec than require reverse engineering (especially when your EULA might forbit the latter!).

Regarding patents, note that the W3C patent policy wouldn't have stopped the Eolas case.

I look forward to working with you in the W3C HTML working group. Like you, I hope that the W3C HTML working group eventually makes the WHATWG redundant. However, as I've told the W3C before [1], the current charter would disenfrachise the existing WHATWG community without having any mechanisms in place to ensure spec quality, so I am not convinced that this will happen any time soon.

[1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2006Nov/0053.html

-Hixie

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

HT — Thu, 11 Jan 2007 00:50:09 GMT

I was once a member of a W3C working group, and from my experience it did seem like the chair can have significant influence over the spec - or perhaps I should say that the person who edits the spec has the influence (in my case the chair and the editor were the same person). An editor of the spec probably spends more time thinking about the spec and the special wording that anyone else on the group, and can therefore subtly influence how the spec comes about. Sure, the other members have a chance to counteract this, but if they don't spend as much time on it as the editor it seems unlikely. In some cases the editor can make some choices, and it is only natural to make choices in a way that benefits the editor and his/her company.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

cwilso — Thu, 11 Jan 2007 01:37:10 GMT

Christian,

FWIW I agree with you. But I've worked for Microsoft for a long time, and I can't get away from the fact that not everyone is willing to expect the best from others, and understand that there is context to everything.

Ian,

I know that's been your goal in for error correction in the WHAT-WG. We (MSFT) can't change error-handling at ALL, because we're locked into compat. I don't think what we do to handle errors is sane or a good idea, in many cases. I wouldn't want it to be a spec, but at the same time we can't change it in-place. "Implementable" is a good word.

As for the disenfranchisement, I would hope (and work to make) that is not true. I think every member of the WG is responsible for ensuring spec quality.

HT,

In my experience the editors do have much more power to enact change or wreak havoc (depending on how you look at it :)) than chairs.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Boris Zbarsky — Thu, 11 Jan 2007 03:31:09 GMT

Chris, based on testing of IE7, it looks to me like MSFT made some major changes from IE6 already (e.g. whether javascript: URI execution is sync or async has changed in a number of cases). I'm not sure what that means in terms of your ability to make parser error-handling changes.

I agree that there are cases where WHATWG and IE6 will simply disagree (e.g. the cases where IE6 produces a DOM that's not a tree). But I think it still makes sense to have a description (possibly informative) that describes how parser error-handling should happen to be maximally compatible with existing content. It's a good idea for the health of HTML -- it reduces the barrier to entry into HTML rendering...

Working in the public view

Noel Grandin — Thu, 11 Jan 2007 11:11:13 GMT

I haven't noticed that any other group that operates their discussions in the public eye has any lack of humor and/or joking between members.

(a) Tell your lawyers and executives to get over themselves.

(b) Get used to it.

It really works quite well once people get used to it, and you get broader feedback at much higher rate than otherwise - there are always a ton of people not on the working group who will make good suggestions via other communication channels.

And as any good engineer knows, the less delay in your feedback loop, the sooner you lock on a good target :-)

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

jgraham — Thu, 11 Jan 2007 13:01:18 GMT

It seems to me that your reluctance to specify well-defined error handling is a good example of Daniel's concerns; the reasons you give are because Microsoft would take the business decision not to implement that part of the spec. However, in your own words, the qualities for a good chairperson are someone "who could be driven about the goals of evolving HTML, understanding of the requirements of large and small entities (from one-person shops to Microsoft-sized entities), could remain objective and were truly independent". By these criteria, a good chairperson would be enthusiastic about the benefits offered to everyone (apart from Microsoft) by interoperable error handling; it allows one person shops to implement HTML parsers that deal with the vast majority if content in the wild, it increases the chances that content which works in one non-IE browser will work in all non-IE browser and generally reduces the number on man years wasted as different groups separately try to work out how IE handles a particular case of malformed markup. These advantages are huge, even if Microsoft won't change their implementation.

I'm not saying that you wouldn't be a good chairperson (I have no way to tell), but in my mind you've reaffirmed Daniel's original point.

I'm also curious why you regard independence from the WHATWG as an important quality in a chairperson. If the eventual idea is to merge the two groups, it seems like enforced separation is a poor way to start.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Matthew Raymond — Thu, 11 Jan 2007 22:12:25 GMT

Okay, let's say I'm developing a new commercial web browser that supports HTML. That browser needs to be able to handle errors for HTML, so I must take one of the following actions:

1) Define my own proprietary error handling.

2) Copy the error handling of a major competitor.

3) Follow an error handling standard.

Option #1 is to labor and time intensive and would result in pages with errors being rendered in a manner different from other browser.

Option #2 is legally problematic for closed source applications, especially if the EULA forbids reverse-engineering. I could use code from an open source browser to determine error handling behavior, but unless I'm reusing the source code, this ends up being labor intensive because I must read through the code and document how it behaves before I can write my own code for the same purpose.

Option #3 eliminates the cost of specifying behavior on my own before implementing that behavior in code, so it requires the least amount of labor and time. If that standard is used by the majority of browser vendors, it's a no-brainer even if it's not supported by the browser with the most marketshare for the following reasons:

a) At worst, my browser is no worst at handling errors than any other competitor of the browser with the most marketshare.

b) The error handling will be reasonably close to the browser with the most marketshare because competing vendors would never have implemented the standard otherwise.

Would it matter to me if WHATWG created the standard instead of W3C? Probably not, because all other options are too costly in labor and time-to-market. So if the W3C decides not to do error handling at all, I'd just the WHATWG spec.

Therefore, what would be the motive for blocking an error handling specification in the W3C, since it clearly benefits implementors to have such a standard? Well, if your employer is the browser vendor with the largest marketshare, it would clearly not be in your interests to support a standard that prevents you from using incompatibility between browsers as a competitive advantage.

I'm not saying that Chris Wilson opposes a definition of error handling for this reason. It could be that he's concerned about rendering thousands or even millions of web pages that were tested using IE error handling would suddenly fail in browsers that use the new standard, for instance. I'm just saying that there appears to be a conflict of interest. Chris should consider that, in the end, a spec will get published, and if it's not published by the W3C it may color his reputation as chair.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

cwilso — Thu, 11 Jan 2007 22:52:49 GMT

I think the last several comments miss my point. I DO think that error-handling should be part of a spec; I DON'T think you can back-track that into html4.01 parsing. If you want to put it in a new system, great - I've publicly stated that as essentially the reason we don't support the XHTML MIME type yet, because I want to do it right and not mess up the error-handling (or more to the point, the lack thereof).

If the error handling rules are explicitly only for HTML > 4.01, and that's clearly identified by DOCTYPE, that's fine too. If they're informative, fine, but my point is that we (MSFT) can't change our handling of errors in HTML 4.01 content without causing potentially massive compatibility problems for our own browser.

In short - error-handling definition for future only - great, no problem, I agree it's an interoperability issue that I want the spec to address. (I'm not as religious as others who seem to think that XML's draconian error handling is not a good way to address this, however.) Again, future content types only, I support this - I said CHANGING error-handling behavior, not putting error handling in a new content type (lower case content type, not MIME type necessarily, but clearly identified).

My concern is the spec changing under our compatibility parsing system for HTML 4.01. That's not just because I work for Microsoft - it's because if I support making the spec change like that, I'm giving Microsoft a Solomon choice - either break compatibility and screw your users, or ignore the spec and screw your developers.

JGraham - I regard independence from the WHATWG as important for the same reason I don't think the HTML WG that produced the XHTML 2 spec is the right group to evolve HTML - they have a bunch of biases because they believe they've already developed the solutions. There may be nothing wrong with them (other than the IP concerns I listed) - but I'd like a fresh eye that can examine the work the WHAT WG has done AND be objective about the positive aspects of the W3C.

Noel - I totally agree the less latency, the better. That's why I still support teleconferences and FTF meetings, though I wouldn't want them to be the only or even the most important way the WG does business.

Matthew - the big challenges for HTML (and I think the other people who support the new WG vs. the old HTML WG would agree) is to evolve HTML in place. Just looking at it from a "build a new browser" or "build a new site that only has to deal with new browsers" perspective is kinda what the XHTML 2 spec does.

Oh, and Ian - no, the Patent Policy would not have prevented the Eolas case. However, it would prevent concerns about contributors to the spec intentionally introducing protected IP.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Joe Clark — Fri, 12 Jan 2007 01:24:34 GMT

Acting as chair of a W3C committee is akin to the Canadian governmental system, sometimes dubbed a parliamentary dictatorship. You have enormous influence and can round up all your friends on the committee via back channels. You can unilaterally cancel, or conspire with your cochair to cancel, anyone's invited-expert status. You can and, according to W3 procedures, in some cases must ignore outside criticism. You can state that something was passed by consensus even if some people were in opposition.

You can, in short, act like the chairs of the WCAG Working Group.

Or you can decide that the whole thing is tainted and not do it.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Tino Zijdel — Fri, 12 Jan 2007 01:45:00 GMT

A new version of HTML will most probably not be based on SGML (WHATWG's WA1.0 at least isn't) so therefor I think it is safe to assume that both the parsing rules as well as the rules for error-correction should only apply to documents that are specifically marked up using this new version of HTML. And yes, doctype can be used for that.

The spec should be backwards-compatible in such way that HTML4 parsers can at least make something of it, but ofcourse there can be no guarantees.

I do however have some concerns about the stance MSFT is taking here with regards to backwards compatibility. After all we are talking about pages that are broken to begin with so the fear of 'breaking the web' seems a bit ambiguous. And how does that translate to other propriety technologies such as the obsolete document.all object model and IE's whacky event-model? Holding on to backwards-compatibility effectively means that IE will never become truly standards-compliant.

my answer

Daniel Glazman — Fri, 12 Jan 2007 13:19:10 GMT

My answer is available here : http://glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?2007/01/11/2420-future-of-the-html-wg-3

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Asbjørn Ulsberg — Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:02:03 GMT

Thanks for this reassuring post, Chris. Although I'd like Microsoft to give you more time to invest in this extremely important task you now have, I think it's very good that it is a Microsoft employee (like you) that has taken the position as chairman of the HTML WG. I believe you will do an excellent job and even more importantly, I think you will do a good job of bringing the HTML WG's work inside Microsoft and "evangalizing" about it there so future versions of Internet Explorer will comply better with the specification.

About standardizing error correction; I think this is very important. Just look at CSS and its success, most importantly at its ability to be extended with proprietary properties. Only because CSS' error handling is well specified is this possible. Exactly what the error handling (and correction of it) in HTML should be is another discussion, but it should definately be a part of the HTML specification how that error handling and correction should be. That's at least my opinion about it.

About the IPR commitment, can't that be something included in the registration form for the mailing list?

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Rob — Thu, 18 Jan 2007 03:53:56 GMT

I'll repeat what I've posted elsewhere:

"I don't trust Chris Wilson because he has a Microsoft agenda. Therefore, it is a horrible decision to make him chair of this group. In addition, there are other persons, groups and companies who have long shown a willingness and responsibility toward the standards group in the past while Microsoft AND Chris Wilson have not."

And please don't point to IE7 as a 'willingness or responsibility'. I've had my joke of the day already.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Andri — Thu, 18 Jan 2007 05:32:00 GMT

IMO, it is not very appropriate for the chairman to be the employee of one of the biggest stake holders. Also, many people blame MS for crippling the evolution of the web by not making IE6 standards compliant from the beginning. Hell, I don't even trust MS to do anything right these days.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Macie Stachowiak — Thu, 18 Jan 2007 07:58:29 GMT

I posted the Safari Team's comments on the proposed charters: http://webkit.org/blog/?p=89

Microsoft liderará el grupo de trabajo HTML en la W3C

Sentido Web — Thu, 18 Jan 2007 09:41:22 GMT

El grupo de trabajo que, dentro de la W3C, se encargará de la controvertida misión de "reinventar el HTML", estará liderado por Chris Wilson, el jefe del proyecto IE7. Este grupo de trabajo colaborará con WHATWG de evolucionar el HTML...

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

cwilso — Fri, 19 Jan 2007 01:20:22 GMT

Rob, you clearly do not know me personally and therefore do not know whereof you speak.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Rob — Fri, 19 Jan 2007 01:30:53 GMT

I should have mentioned that I don't mean this personally. As others have said, I've never met you and only saw you in online video. I am commenting on your company and the company face you wear. Neither has shown to be trustworthy.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

---...--- — Fri, 19 Jan 2007 10:02:49 GMT

How M$ ever thinks it can get away with having

an employee chair a W3C HTML standards body is

beyond me.

M$ has cost the industry millions of dollars in

waste with bloated, bug ridden, insecure,

regularly power recycling OS's and used illegal

acts to impose a monopoly coz, duh, Bill's got

a "vision". Sorry, SIR Bill's got a "vision".

Embrace and extend HTML ? Get lost.

Give us a break and step down. No one thinks

it's a good idea except possibly you and your

Imperialistic Bosses.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

BrentP — Fri, 19 Jan 2007 22:23:49 GMT

Chris gets appointed as chair and everyone chokes on the word Microsoft. Get the hell over it already, we've heard the M$ rhetoric for years now and regardless of opinions excluding them and anyone associated with them doesn't solve the problem nor is it in the spirit of what the W3C is about.

So, accepting that MS are going to be a part of standards discussion, is Chris a good choice for chair? I've honestly no clue. I don't know Chris, I don't know his work ethic, his goals or what drives him.

Here's a novel idea, why not give him the benefit of the doubt, see what happens over the course of his appointment and mark him based on what comes out of the HTML Working Group, instead of frothing at the mouth every time MS is mentioned and make blanket assumptions about the ethics and morality of someone you admit you know nothing about?

I say congrats Chris and good luck, you'll need it. ;)

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Jonathan Lambert — Sat, 20 Jan 2007 05:07:28 GMT

Look, M$ has done a lot of harm over the years (and not a lot of good IMHO) to browsers, and has a really bad reputation as a company that subly manipulates standards organizations and tries to "steer developers." Every conference I go to has a M$ guy there with some vague job description like "developer relation guy" or something. It's really odd.

This is an organization that spent gobs of money crushing their browser competitors and giving away a product that required blood and tears, and working to implement closed standards that furthered first the goals of the organization, primariliy interoperability with their other products and operating systems. The concerns of anything but marketshare and the aforementioned application lock in were second, if they even got consideration. We all know there are a lot of really great engineers and people at Microsoft working for Open Standards, but are they M$ Open Standards like so much of what the company has produced over the years? Can't think of anything? ActiveX, DotNet, JScript (WTF man?), VBScript, C# (The "Open Standard" Java Crusher which was neither open nor standard), etc, etc. I myself really like the company, though I don't use its products.

This is a person, whom I don't know but who I am sure is a fine fellow, who is in the employment of said company. There is a massive question about whether (regardless of who he is) there is a conflict of interest in him heading up the one of the most important technology redesigns the web is going to have for a while.

Regardless of the person (and I know this is on his blog), or the situation's specifics, it's leads conceptually to some rather unpleasant questions and concerns.

I would have the same argument about someone from Mozilla coming in to work on this, except that organization has no track record of crushing their competitors for profit. The person who sets the agenda for the group (the 'cat herder') really would get some serious credibility if it were clear that they have no conflict of interest or potential influence from an organization that has a history of market manipulation. I know that they get input into the process, but when you have a 700 lb sumo wrestler leading the meeting it's hard to ignore him.

I know you'll probably stand in this position, and I know you'll weigh these concerns. But please consider quitting M$ if they try to influence this process - there is a major concern from those of us who work with the output of this process, and I don't want to see M$ dominate the market because of furher "Open Standards" work. I don't even think it would be good for M$ strategically to do so - but it's a concern nonetheless.

I think it would be best put, "we would prefer someone who didn't work for a market manipulating software company." It's like someone from Standard Oil working on a steering committee for future Oil Production Standards for the industry. Doesn't sound like it's even possible to be objective does it? And it begs the question of why M$ would be willing to pay an employee to work on this unless it has some output.

Please prove me wrong, cause I think you're already in there. And I'm SURE you're going to do a good job. But I'm also sure you're hearing this concern. Oh, and I hope to meet you one day, as I'm sure knowing you personally would make me a lot less anxious about this.

Jonathan Lambert

Standards ! ... What standards ?

Tim Chambers — Tue, 23 Jan 2007 04:24:54 GMT

Standards ! ... What standards ?

You mean we have to follow someone elses logical and accepted rules. That's not the MS way. We're always right so you must be wrong.

New analogy...

The Government of MS announces a new rail line will be built between two cities. There is a large mountain between but MS has a few alternatives. They build a road around/over it instead. People and goods wanting to use the rail line must be transferred to road to the other side before continuing their rail journey. They would now like to join the rail lines but this would replace/cut the road. Maybe next year they say every year :) The rail line works, the road works, but the system is a failure in the real world.

There’s also a good MS software analogy with cars from several years ago.

(Re)birthing Pangs: The HTML Charter Revisited

arunerblog — Fri, 16 Feb 2007 00:11:48 GMT

This post is about the rechartering of the HTML Working Group, and AOL's stance on the subject. Cross posted from dev.aol.com

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

börsenspiel — Sat, 09 Jun 2007 13:10:36 GMT

I haven't noticed that any other group that operates their discussions in the public eye has any lack of humor and/or joking between members.

(a) Tell your lawyers and executives to get over themselves.

(b) Get used to it.

And as any good engineer knows, the less delay in your feedback loop, the sooner you lock on a good target :-)

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

çeviri — Mon, 09 Jul 2007 00:09:14 GMT

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

freddy — Mon, 09 Jul 2007 09:46:35 GMT

there will be a lot of live information streamed from the event, and videos released afterward. http://visitmix.com/Blogs/Joshua/visitmix-from-home/

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

emlak — Sat, 14 Jul 2007 02:02:09 GMT

I know that's been your goal in for error correction in the WHAT-WG. We (MSFT) can't change error-handling at ALL, because we're locked into compat

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Bank zdjec — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 00:36:27 GMT

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Rudolf — Sun, 05 Aug 2007 22:58:09 GMT

Thank science you took M$ weight off your shoulders and now can speak freely about everything you like, good or bad…

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Rudolf — Sun, 05 Aug 2007 22:59:04 GMT

Thank science you took M$ weight off your shoulders and now can speak freely about everything you like, good or bad…

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Rudolf — Sun, 05 Aug 2007 23:00:36 GMT

Thank science you took M$ weight off your shoulders and now can speak freely about everything you like, good or bad…

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Snin — Tue, 07 Aug 2007 23:56:35 GMT

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Markus — Thu, 09 Aug 2007 08:11:35 GMT

The Cause? part of the problem is the obvious defects at the application level - actionscripts/javascripts that are shiite, and using the damn Flash as a video delivery instead of a proper codec like h.264) …. but i suspect that theie are deep system issues in the event model & the thread model for osx itself that are also to blame.Thanks..!

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Alfret — Sat, 11 Aug 2007 21:05:21 GMT

Thank you for this list. This was very helpful to me.I personally can recommend the last three links. In my opinion they are outstanding.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Chris — Thu, 16 Aug 2007 19:11:31 GMT

Anyway, Google Reader is very nifty. I like being able to save news searches which you can refer to later.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

download — Fri, 17 Aug 2007 21:26:57 GMT

I like being able to save news searches which you can refer to later.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

door — Thu, 13 Sep 2007 04:44:55 GMT

I like being able to save news searches which you can refer to later...

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Alonzo Mourning — Tue, 18 Sep 2007 09:04:13 GMT

keep up the your great work.

thank you.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

markovich — Sat, 06 Oct 2007 20:04:08 GMT

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

TMaxim — Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:05:38 GMT

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

BaltikS — Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:14:20 GMT

I know that's been your goal in for error correction in the WHAT-WG. We (MSFT) can't change error-handling at ALL, because we're locked into compat

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

TMaxim — Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:15:39 GMT

And how I can correct mistakes?

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Balterio — Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:36:24 GMT

We all know there are a lot of really great engineers and people at Microsoft working for Open Standards, but Open Standards like so much of what the company has produced over the years? ActiveX, DotNet, JScript, VBScript, C# (The "Open Standard" Java Crusher),

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

EnxdesigN — Sat, 27 Oct 2007 17:09:32 GMT

keep up the your great work. Thanks

International Song & Lyrics Archive

International Song & Lyrics Archive — Sat, 27 Oct 2007 17:40:05 GMT

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Lena — Sat, 27 Oct 2007 21:20:32 GMT

http://kiloalmak.blogspot.com/

Anyway, Google Reader is very nifty. I like being able to save news searches which you can refer to later.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Quality Deep Link Directory — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 01:13:35 GMT

Google reader is my reader of choice as well. Good post with interesting points.

lazer

lazer epilasyon — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 04:36:09 GMT

I posted the Safari Team's comments on the proposed charters http://lazerepilasyonu.gen.tr

küresel ısınma

küresel ısınma — Mon, 29 Oct 2007 22:01:21 GMT

I like being able to save news searches which you can refer to later

oyunlar

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

oda kapısı — Mon, 05 Nov 2007 13:24:57 GMT

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Lucas — Fri, 07 Dec 2007 13:35:32 GMT

I totlaty agre with following sentence:

"We all know there are a lot of really great engineers and people at Microsoft working for Open Standards, but Open Standards like so much of what the company has produced over the years? ActiveX, DotNet, JScript, VBScript, C# (The "Open Standard" Java Crusher), this is good idea"

Great Job!

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kraloyun — Fri, 14 Dec 2007 02:54:16 GMT

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

AMG — Fri, 14 Dec 2007 23:28:20 GMT

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

bilgi yarışması — Fri, 11 Jan 2008 13:56:41 GMT

keep up the your great work. Thanks

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

e-Okul — Thu, 17 Jan 2008 00:05:32 GMT

are normal human beings that make fun of each other, make (human) errors, have different opinions etc.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Webdesign — Sun, 20 Jan 2008 15:59:52 GMT

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

oda kapısı — Mon, 28 Jan 2008 18:08:09 GMT

The Government of MS announces a new rail line will be built between two cities. There is a large mountain between but MS has a few alternatives. They build a road around/over it instead.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

hosting — Fri, 01 Feb 2008 16:59:22 GMT

are normal human beings that make fun of each other, make (human) errors.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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are normal human beings that make fun of each other, make (human) errors.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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are normal human beings that make fun of each other, make (human) errors.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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are normal human beings that make fun of each other, make (human) errors.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

ilan — Sat, 02 Feb 2008 16:34:32 GMT

are normal human beings that make fun of each other, make (human) errors.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

bilgi yarışması — Sat, 02 Feb 2008 18:15:42 GMT

übersetzungen

übersetzungen — Tue, 05 Feb 2008 00:15:37 GMT

There are many useful informations in this great article…I really enjoy reading the whole blog that you write. Thanks!....

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

dizi — Sat, 09 Feb 2008 01:07:46 GMT

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Rick — Sat, 09 Feb 2008 19:04:02 GMT

Given how stupid the results of the W3C has been in the past (CSS, anyone?) it makes me wish MS would just define a standard and put out a browser plugin for IE, Firefox to implement it. HTML and especially CSS is broken and needs a reboot. The open source idiots can't come up with a coherent design if their life depends on it so just pass the baton to somebody that can

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

web tasarımı — Tue, 19 Feb 2008 12:52:37 GMT

The Government of MS announces a new rail line will be built between two cities.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

amerikan kapı — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 11:51:45 GMT

Obviously not everything is the same (e.g. where IE6 crashes, the HTML5 spec requires something else) but by and large it is already as close to IE6 as possible. So not only would we consider doing what you describe, to a large extent, we've done it. In practice browser vendors have to do that anyway, whether it's specced or not, due to the volumes of content on the Web depending on it. It's better to have a spec than require reverse engineering (especially when your EULA might forbit the latter!).

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

indir.com — Wed, 20 Feb 2008 18:58:13 GMT

why not give him the benefit of the doubt, see what happens over the course of his appointment and mark him based on what comes out of the HTML Working Group, instead of frothing at the mouth every time MS is mentioned and make blanket assumptions about the ethics and morality of someone you admit you know nothing about?

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Dizi — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 11:00:25 GMT

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

program — Sun, 02 Mar 2008 12:27:33 GMT

why not give him the benefit of the doubt, see what happens over the course of his appointment and mark him based on what comes out of the HTML Working Group...

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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I like being able to save news searches which you can refer to later.

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Tcs Fiu — Mon, 12 May 2008 04:16:55 GMT

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Top Flite — Wed, 14 May 2008 15:42:07 GMT

Very nice article. Thanks for taking the time to write it down. Keep up the good work.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Marco — Fri, 04 Jul 2008 08:39:18 GMT

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

бизнес — Sun, 24 Aug 2008 12:30:11 GMT

Very nice article. Thanks for taking the time to write it down. Keep up the good work!!

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

Spor — Thu, 25 Sep 2008 03:28:09 GMT

Anyway, Google Reader is very nifty. I like being able to save news searches which you can refer to later.

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

SneakyWho_am_i — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 08:56:33 GMT

Forgive Rob. Like all web designers, he has been hurt by Microsoft in unforgivable ways. Not your fault Mr Wilson.

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

conn3ct — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 07:26:41 GMT

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

ahmet maranki — Fri, 11 Sep 2009 22:05:03 GMT

Thanks for this reassuring post, Chris. Although I'd like Microsoft to give you more time to invest in this extremely important task you now have

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

oyunlar — Sun, 11 Oct 2009 17:43:16 GMT

common sense and the wishes of many New Yorkers in enacting this unnecessary bill. This government intrusion

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

medyum — Sat, 07 Nov 2009 23:27:18 GMT

El grupo de trabajo que, dentro de la W3C, se encargará de la la liga controvertida misión de "reinventar el HTML", estará liderado por Chris Wilson, el jefe del proyecto IE7. Este grupo de trabajo karosu colaborará con WHATWG de evolucionar el HTML...

re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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re: You, me and the W3C (aka Reinventing HTML)

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