Dave Massy's Blog

# re: IE Team Blog @ Wednesday, July 21, 2004 7:09 PM

You're not sure you would feel comfortable using any other browser!? I congratulate you guys for working hard trying to do the right thing but to assume that IE is better than other browsers given IE's security history is amazingly arrogant.

Laughing till I cry

# Will's Blog » MS IE Team Blog and Blogging… @ Wednesday, July 21, 2004 10:23 PM

Will's Blog » MS IE Team Blog and Blogging…

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# re: IE Team Blog @ Wednesday, July 21, 2004 8:15 PM

It takes 10 atta boys to make up for one dumb mistake. In the last week I know of three 100+ person companies who have migrated away from IE. You have a lot of work to do. You now must be way better than everyone else.

Dan

# re: IE Team Blog @ Wednesday, July 21, 2004 9:31 PM

I can't believe what I read... If you want to make IE suck just a little less, I suggest that you start feeling comfortable with other browsers... that way you'll learn what it feels to browse with a modern browser. Perhaps that gives you a head start at what should be done in IE.

Daniel Cazzulino

# re: IE Team Blog @ Thursday, July 22, 2004 12:20 AM

Thanks for the mention, Dave. Your readers might like an excerpt, though, so here you go:

"Today, we didn't fix or implement support for several useful and important Web standards that pretty much everybody else implemented properly years ago. Tomorrow's agenda has a bunch more of the same not fixing and not implementing; in fact, our roadmap through our Longhorn release is overflowing with not fixing or implementing support for Web standards! It sure is great that we don't have to compete on features like everybody else!"


(*joke*)

The IE Team

# re: IE Team Blog @ Thursday, July 22, 2004 7:03 AM

Just to clarify here. When I said "I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable using any other browser." I was talking in regards to security. Having seen the convoluted attacks that the bad guys are coming up with I'm confident we have the right team on the job.
We do all of course look at other browsers and as I've said before we are aware we are behind in some areas and plan to address that.

Dave Massy

# re: IE Team Blog @ Thursday, July 22, 2004 8:16 AM

I was wondering if somebody from the IE team is really using IE to surf the web....I mean...come on!

thomas

# re: IE Team Blog @ Thursday, July 22, 2004 8:19 AM

While I'm sure that you've made many improvements to IE to make it better than it was, it still strikes me as a bit incredible for you to tacitly imply that other browsers are hugely insecure when IE's track record is so much worse than (say) Mozilla's.

Mike Kozlowski

# The IE Team Has a Blog @ Thursday, July 22, 2004 11:59 AM

I could have told you this was coming... But that wouldn't have been any fun! The IE Team has a brand new blog! The IE team, of late, has become more open, more communicative and once again more involved in the community. This is a fantastic, and welcome, step. I'm sure they'll get flooded at first, but I urge them to keep their chins up. We want to see IE improve, and most of us do realise these guys work their butts off on a product they believe in. Go team! [ thanks to Dave Massey for the link ]...

Ensight - Jeremy C. Wright

# re: IE Team Blog @ Thursday, July 22, 2004 9:32 AM

"I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable using any other browser"

LOL, you are joking, right? I wouldn't feel comfortable with IE *because* of the security (and many other things)!

BTW: What about the IE user on Windows 9x, 2000? There are so many security holes in IE, some of them are closed with Windows XP SP2, but what do you advise users of older Windows versions?

--Thomas

Thomas

# re: IE Team Blog @ Thursday, July 22, 2004 11:00 AM

Dave, the biggest up-hill battle you face is on PR. You've got frustrated end users and scornful developers out there.

I'm going to go out on a limb and trust that you guys have done a full security risk assesment of IE (tighter machine access, buffer over-runs) and that is shipping for SP2. I know a lot of people will complain that SP2 enhancements will not be available to backwards versions - but that gives me more reason to step up to XP Pro and leave 2000 behind. And I speak only for my self on this.

I read in another post that you don't have a lot of time to make your choices becasue of the impending Longhorn beta. Is it really a good choice to have something new in beta 1? Would it not be a more reasonable to aim for beta 2? (Alot of us have complained becasue in reality we would really like to see the next IE kick 'butt', and if possible be backwards compatable with XP.)

I'm really looking forward to reading the IE team blog and your blog as well. I currious about the solutions the team will come up with. I'm interested on how XAML and the new Explorer (which totally subsumes browser-style navigation) will affect the choices on where to make enhancements. As an Asp.Net developer I'm interested in increased standards support. Maybe not all, but atleast the common things that need to be fixed.

But to be honsest I'm most interested in seeing the IE team discuss where they are going and why. It makes for an interesting read and is a good opportunity. How much longer until we can start to see some specifics on what you (the team) have in mind?

I'm finished with complaining. I set the idea in my mind that when the IE team has a blog - that means we developers have been heard. I'm excited about the possibilities.

lynn eriksen

# re: IE Team Blog @ Friday, July 23, 2004 2:55 AM

As a browser, IE is nicely integrated in windows. Its tie into the OS offers an up and a down side. I think, and I may be wrong, that inside microsoft, its developers, and its developers whom work outside Microsoft fundamentally do not understand the critical state of the browser.

If I were running a company with a full AD, Full infrastructure, SMS, SUS, then maybe we would be able to set things up to patch and cover our asses, but we don't. And we won't any time soon. And EVEN if we did, the consession that that is the state we are in is a defeatist, apologist, disaster of an ideal.

How a leading tester of IE can make the comments made at the top of this page show the level of astonishing lack of understanding about the issues surrounding IE outside of Microsoft. How can you really laugh of a state where a company is only offering a fix for its product by an unavailable (read non beta) SP2 package?

Right now, IE is the biggest hole in Windows. I can't recommend it to friends, family or business. If I do, I know I'm going to be right there installing patching to any such machine forever. Its taken over from Outlook (a product now nicknamed Lookout by many) as the current security and operational nightmare.

Its built into your systems guys, its not easily removed, its not easily maintained, its not secure, its a bloody night mare?

Can you think of another browser that has to have the follwoing installed JUST to have any semblence of hoping to protect the machine?:
A pop-up blocker
BHOdemon1/2
Ad-Aware
Full AntiVirus

And thats before we cover wether people will ever absorb the constant stream of windows updates. The fact that the core is so riddled, and the numbers of updates required by say, dial up users, is now guaranteed to limit take up of your updates.

I'm not anti-microsoft, BUT dammit, sometimes you guys are your own worst nightmare. In recent months MS has re-iterated that its serious about security. Right now, IE needs to come with a heath warning. It needs major work in education of end users so they can protect themselves. Most users outside of a development or IT enviroment simply are not aware of how bad IE is, and they make assumptions about an application in regard to IE that will lead to their machines being taken. But all of that is because IE is *REALLY* that bad. Its really that riddled, open, bugged.

Right now, in my company, from the cleaners, the users, right through to Management, there is not a soul who has faith in IE, and thus microsoft. Blithly chalking things down to 'We suggest you get SP2' when SP2 is still merely a realease candidate is a wind up.

Every day of my life is now taken up with windows updates for IE to a large degree, its taken up with removing the junk, backdoors, spyware, adware, browser helper objects, ADODB.stream infestations, keyloggers, and you know what, the consensus is always thats its our fault, the end users fault, a lack of security, firewalls, policy, staff behaviour, or that we should change our whole structure by implementing an SP2 that is still only a 'release candidate'. Thats me, on the arse end of you guys and your 'development' between a rock and a hard place.

Guys, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE UNDERSTAND that I can't remove IE. Thats your doing. I can't goddamn continue to commit workaround after workaround on such a core, broken, bugged component. Is your intention to drive all end users who have any semblence of intelligence away? You do know anyone with a shredd of background info is moving off IE, even if they can't remove it. People are running to the hills. The browser is just another component like office or otherwise that if you lose on, you lose on it big. People can use Linux from browsing the net, do you want that?

I no longer give a rats ass about new function in IE. I really mean that. I'm not interested in IE adding more for developers. I want a damned browser that is not the new Outlook. I want it simple, secure, solid. And if your answer is what I am seeing so far, I'm going to take my whole company IT structure, and I swear I'll get rid of this myself. I don't care that I may be a small customer, I don't care wether you read this blog, or take notice of what I have said, I don't care if no one at MS cares, either you guys get damned serious, right now, or you're going bye bye.

stewart@gci.ac.uk

Darren Stewart

# re: If you have an evening to read comments to a single post @ Friday, July 23, 2004 5:21 PM

Dave Burke

# re: IE Team Blog @ Friday, July 23, 2004 2:24 PM

Dave, as a semi-intelligent human with a bit of a grasp on the state of technology, I can not figure out how you can say that you wouldn't feel comfortable with any other browser in regards to the number one reason why people are abandoning said browser. Security in IE is one of the top (bad) news makers at MS. Saying something like that without explanation sounds like blowing smoke. If it is true, you should probably explain yourself.

Shannon J Hager

# re: IE Team Blog @ Friday, July 23, 2004 6:11 PM

not using IE is part of the security requirements at our company, since we're in the finance sector. developers using IE is a risk to our customer base due to the sensitive nature of the projects.

get it together! this state of affairs is ridiculous. your claims that you don't feel comfortable using any other browser especially w.r.t. security concerns is laughable.

James Wilson

# re: IE Team Blog @ Wednesday, July 28, 2004 1:12 AM

Dave-Great work and glad I discovered your corner of the web. You do great work! As senior developer working for a technology services company who have based a solid majority of our services based on Microsoft's products and web solutions, I will say you guys and your team have done a stellar job with Internet Explorer, despite all the negative comments. In 2000, we had IE 5 and horrible Netscape 4.8 as the market dominant browsers. Your browser, no matter what anyone says, has saved the internet the past 3 years, as the alternatives were horrible. Ive seen IE climb the last 4 years to 85% market saturation, and there is no web designer out there that can honestly say they havent appreciated having IE as an easy target to shoot for in developing any site. Now in 2004 with new CSS and xhtml standards moving forward finally, that climate is changing once again....the web is proving more its universal nature and we are seeing IE slip slowly in market dominance month to month to Mozilla and a whole crop of new micro-browsers in the mobile market going head to head on smaller devices. In addition, with .NET I had high hopes your team would see the horror of Frontpage as a development GUI and see its failure in the web design world and shy away from proprietary markup and css in Visual Studio as well. But you continue to make terrible development tools when it comes to front-end code, that is clearly tailored to (and who's blame is) IE. As the standards-based web code and xhtml/xml stuff comes forward more and more in web design strategies, its crucial that any GUI or development tool AND browser development team NOT build incestuous relationships between company apps, where code that only works in a single browser or tool is allowed to flourish in the front end code, such that that code works great in IE and IIs but crashes and burns on Linux and Unix web servers and Mozilla/Netscape/AOl/Safari browsers. Its a different world now, and you guys will quickly dig yourself a hole you cannot climb out of if you design web tools, browsers and code that is packed with proprietary junk just for IE. (Think about why so many of us use Dreamweaver). At web shops, we are having to abondon Visual Studio and Frontage COMPLETELY now as a viable products because of IE and the relationship it has with those products. We cannot design cross-browser sites that use standards-based code or style sheets using your tools, because IE is non-compliant....someone on your team has to give.....either stop spitting out IE-based web code in Visual Studio, or redesign IE so its universally compliant with the W3C and matches the other browsers. Ive elected next year to abondon Visual Studio completely in the graphics group, and it is sublimated to a business logic and app tool only because of this fact, and we cannot now use it reliably as a good coding tool, because its code ONLY works reliably in IE. And because its non-standard with the W3c recommendations, and continues to implement cross-product proprietary tags and code, cannot be seen as a reliable development too for web-based products which rely heavily on clean conservative standard CSS and html/xhtml javascript-free client-side code. (Same for Sharepoint technologies). Otherwise, yes, IE is a good product as an indepenedent tool and Im sure all the security features will make it a great tool! (Despite the standards issues, its does have great logic to handle complex layout problems in css and html). I will continue to use it as my favorite browser for years to come....just no longer have faith in Microsoft's other products to deliver standard-based css and code that works in Mozilla, on Linux OS, MAC OS....and thats crucial to survival online and needed in order to reach all users globably! You agree?

-MS

Mitchell Stokely

# re: IE Team Blog @ Wednesday, August 04, 2004 7:42 AM

Dave, your remark about other browser's security (I also read the update you posted) is definitelly not something you need if you want to make your public image better.

First, you sort of insult other teams saying that you are feeling secure only when using IE because you know how good your team is. Which could imply that you think dev teams for other browser are bad. You don't have to think that - the wording implies that and with the PR image IE and MS has, that is problematic.

Second (and more important) is the essence of your post. Mozilla is open-source - any cracker can see the code and look for security holes directly in it. For IE they have to peek and poke around, do reverse debugging and similar stuff. Which is harder to do?

I certainly feel more secure using Mozilla products becasue of the open nature of the code. If there is flaw in it, it would be in the wild pretty soon after each release.

You have a long way to go, and posts like this will not help. :(

Aleksandar

# re: IE Team Blog @ Thursday, August 12, 2004 4:11 AM

When you see the US Department of Homeland Security joining nearly every reputable security group urging people not to use MS products...Are you not at least embarassed by you pathetic work? You should be outright ashamed to show your faces, on-line or off, for all the harm you have caused society. Personally, I think Bill Gates and no less than 100 MS senior management should spend a week or more in jail, as I think the intentional harm caused to millions is criminal in nature as the intent is to make profits and dominate markets takes precedence over quality of product.

ABM

# Blogging meet IBM, IBM meet blogging @ Tuesday, August 24, 2004 11:41 AM

Obviously there are plenty of IBMers that write blogs, but it was interesting to see that Ed Brill just went corporate. That is, Brill, who has just taken on a new sales leadership role at Lotus, has brought his personal...

James Governor's MonkChips

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