Ajax == DHTML + XMLHttp

re: Ajax == DHTML + XMLHttp

golly gosh — Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:10:00 GMT

Yawn. Once again Microsoft copies the substance from a FF dev blog.

http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1111339822&count=1

I hope you provide some actual innovation with IE7 instead of just copying Mozilla and Opera.

re: Ajax == DHTML + XMLHttp

Dave Massy — Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:08:00 GMT

I hadn't seen the Firefox blog as I was on the road at the end of last week and missed a few things. Great to know that I'm not alone in my thoughts.
I do find it funny to be accused of copying even a blog. Expecially when in this particular area Microsoft was the creator of the first DHTML implementation and XMLHTTP :-)

re: Ajax == DHTML + XMLHttp

Glen P — Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:32:00 GMT

I was pondering this question, but i believe the reason why it has become popular now is that most browsers that are installed on client machines now support these features.
It is alright to say that it was available in 1998. But some/a lot of users don't upgrade their software until they buy a new machine.
Well this is my theory.

re: Ajax == DHTML + XMLHttp

Ian Hickson — Sun, 20 Mar 2005 21:46:00 GMT

I don't know which is funnier. The idea that someone would think Dave would copy my blog, or the fact that that person called me a Firefox Developer. (I work for Opera.)

re: Ajax == DHTML + XMLHttp

Dean Edwards — Sun, 20 Mar 2005 23:18:00 GMT

Yep, kudos to MS for bringing some cool technologies to the web (XMLHTTP and *fast* javascript). And kudos also to adpative path for coining the phrase "Ajax". I agree that it is just a catch-all phrase. But a "car" is just wheels+engine+steering wheel. People understand "car" to be a higher concept. "Ajax" is the same. Raising awareness of this "higher concept" is important. Instead of explaining to a client how I would like to improve his web site with some slick scripting, he's now telling me...

re: Ajax == DHTML + XMLHttp

-dean — Mon, 21 Mar 2005 00:01:00 GMT

This is the age old case of the IT dept getting annoyed at Sales & Marketing for taking all the credit. ;-)

re: Ajax == DHTML + XMLHttp

Rob — Mon, 21 Mar 2005 03:57:00 GMT

"It's been possible since IE5.0 which was released in 1998."

It's actually been possible since IE4, if you count hidden IFRAME techniques (which I'd thought I invented).

re: Ajax == DHTML + XMLHttp

SimonT — Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:06:00 GMT

It bugs the hell out of me all the ajax talk, as Rob mentions hidden Iframes when ie4 was launched I then used to custom objects remotleyl invoked using RemoteScripting RDS object. When xmlhttp came out I used that aswell long before google maps. Too much credit (everywhere else) given to google for "inventing" this technology, no they didnt they just have a huge audience.

re: Ajax == DHTML + XMLHttp

Kenneth — Mon, 21 Mar 2005 08:26:00 GMT

I've often wanted to use the XMLHttp in Ie, but I'm always held back by two problems:

Cross browser - iframes worked since versions 4, but XML in IE has variations even in IE5 to 5.5 to 6.

Lack of info. I find the Microsoft resources very hard to use. The search was (is?) apalling - we have to use google to scan msdn. The second-loading of the left menu pane is incredibly annoying, even on a fast connection - and there's no great division in content: too often have I found something useful only to realize I've switched to a VB library without knowing.
The DHTML object reference is useful when found, but why should the JScript command reference be elsewhere?
Perhaps you could create a DHTML homepage with links to the best content and examples? Or maybe there is one and I haven't found it.

Don't get me wrong: the help is better than Firefox/Mozilla (I've not found anything useful), and the browser was a godsend in taking out NS4. But like IE hasn't changed in the last few years, the help navigation hasn't improved either.

re: Ajax == DHTML + XMLHttp

Nick Fitzsimons — Mon, 21 Mar 2005 12:14:00 GMT

I've been using XmlHttp on intranet apps since 1999, but didn't use it on public web projects because it was an IE-only technology. I think the sudden increase in interest is because we now have support for it in Mozilla/Firefox, Safari and Opera, making it a more viable proposition for those (like me) who don't want to mandate a particular browser for stuff that's on the public web.

re: Ajax == DHTML + XMLHttp

qwertyuiop — Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:04:00 GMT

Why does Ajax work in a non-standard way between browsers? Come on guys, this is the new standards war, Microsoft have all but conceded their lack of CSS 2.1 , the IE7 team will be hung out to dry if they don't fix things in strict doctype mode.

Let's have some consensus on the NEW technology please.

re: Ajax == DHTML + XMLHttp

Mikael Bergkvist — Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:37:00 GMT

I think that the big difference is about people realising a: that most browsers now supports this, and b: the server is whereit's at.

Google stated that there's enough browsers out there backing this up, which is something that most big companies never had before.
Most of them always opted for the most basic solutions, working for whatever browsers.

But the cool thing about the autosuggest feed is that it's so clearly bringing the power of the server to the client, as do the map-service, in real-time.

Not that it's new in any way, but it's never been so appearant before.
It's like with women, we all know what's beneath the clothes, but it's a whole new ballgame when she drops them anyway.

For the first time it's become really clear what the internet could be, if the browsers adopts to being the frontend to a live server-feed, made up by news, information, maps, etc.

Another thing that bugs a lot of designers is the 'flashing' occurring whenever a page loads.
- Does this really have to be?
Can't the browser just wait until it has downloaded the whole page, and then change the view?
I know designers using xmlhttp simply to avoid that ¤¤%&/&!!! flashing.

So it's not new, it's just in context for once.

For once it's perfectly useful and still cool, because it improves the user experience on the web in a subtle way.

re: Ajax == DHTML + XMLHttp

Jonathan — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 00:59:00 GMT

Mikael: if the page is several megabytes, do you still recommend waiting until its all downloaded before displaying any of it?

re: Ajax == DHTML + XMLHttp

Mikael Bergkvist — Wed, 23 Mar 2005 05:54:00 GMT

No, but there has to be a middleground.
Not all pages are several megabytes, are they?
Is'nt there a way to detect what's what?

Fact remains that the flickering is very uncool and disturbing for a company that always claimed that it put the user and the user-experience first.

And what's up with that clicking noice?
You hear it, and it seem to indicate the immidiate loading of the page, and then there's nothing..followed by the nervous, flickering loading of the page.
Times like these, that clicking sound actually make it seem slower than it really is.
IE is pretty fast, if not the fastest, but it does'nt feel like it at all.
It feels like you are driving a Volvo.

I can't belive there's no way to smooth this over, using filters or whatever..something.

It feels like my old computer in the garage where you could actually hear it 'thinking', because the hardrive was so clunky.

Interesting finds so far this week

Jason Haley — Thu, 24 Mar 2005 02:16:00 GMT

Interesting finds so far this week

re: Ajax == DHTML + XMLHttp

Elehu Maganantes — Thu, 24 Mar 2005 14:30:00 GMT

The hype you are seeing is caused by the fact that people are idiots. Many of the 'ajax' examples don't even use XMLHTTPRequest. It means "using javascript but being to l33t to admint that it's actually pretty useful," AFAICT

re: Ajax == DHTML + XMLHttp

Stephen W. Cote — Thu, 24 Mar 2005 17:36:00 GMT

Although IE had XMLHttp support many years ago, I think Dave identified one reason why it didn't catch on earlier: there were not that many examples showing how XMLHttp could be used from the client. There is the webservice behavior and XML data islands, but I don't recall ever seeing an example that made me think, gee-whiz, look how I can use XMLHttp to make a really neat and useful product or feature.

One of the things I always hoped ASPX.NET would have is out of the box support for using XMLHttp from the client to send data or raise events on the server. For example:
http://www.whitefrost.com/blog.jsp?record_id=49

re: Ajax == DHTML + XMLHttp

Aviv Raff — Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:24:00 GMT

Stephen,
ASP.NET 2.0 will have it out of the box.
You can also easily implement it at ASP.NET 1.x.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/04/08/CuttingEdge/

re: Ajax == DHTML + XMLHttp

Igor E. Poteryaev — Mon, 28 Mar 2005 07:28:00 GMT

This sudden attention can be explained not by fact that XMLHttpRequest existed in IE for ages, but because non-IE browsers support it. And,IMHO,this is the only useful extension made by MS.

re: Ajax == DHTML + XMLHttp

sdfasfd — Tue, 29 Mar 2005 14:47:00 GMT

Javascript not DHTML

re: Ajax == DHTML + XMLHttp

Chris Beach — Wed, 30 Mar 2005 10:54:00 GMT

Golly Gosh said "I hope you provide some actual innovation with IE7 instead of just copying Mozilla and Opera."

What hypocricy. If MS had patented its original technologies like XMLHTTPRequest then Firefox and Opera wouldn't have been able to implement them. In fact, if the technologies in IE were protected, Firefox and Opera wouldn't have come into being at all.

Firefox does little more than IE - its just better hyped. Opera will fail because it doesn't have Mozilla's tentacles in the grass-roots web dev community.

re: Ajax == DHTML + XMLHttp

Steve — Fri, 01 Apr 2005 15:02:00 GMT

Hey Dave your memories getting rusty :) , AJAX style apps were possible with IE 4.0 using interop with Java Applets - We [MS] issued a Remote Scripting system for ASP based on this.

XML HTTP Performance and Caching

kaixin110 — Wed, 15 Nov 2006 04:22:33 GMT

XML HTTP Performance and Caching

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