Hackers and Painters by Paul Graham

re: Hackers and Painters by Paul Graham

paul — Fri, 28 May 2004 19:55:00 GMT

I have yet to figure out the motivations for golf. Golfers spend more time talking about their game then actually playing, they have a language and a hierarchy that is a complete mystery to anyone outside their pastime. Golfers like hackers can sit and stare into a lit screen for days and not appear to do anything. They can travel all over the world and meet in groups and compete or just watch others compete, yet there friends and families don’t understand them at all.

re: Hackers and Painters by Paul Graham

Kevin Daly — Fri, 28 May 2004 20:12:00 GMT

Regarding the creation of wealth in pre-industrial times, I think that thesis is a bit naive as well. There were *many* industrial revolutions before the one we write with capital letters, and they tended to lead to the creation of new wealth. As did other significant developments such as the boom in exploration (and all that followed) that began (roughly) in the Renaissance.
We like to divide the stream of history up into neat, tidy little periods (just as we do on the micro scale with our fixation "decades"), but it is a mistake to think that this is a reflection of reality rather than our own psychology. History is human beings doing stuff...and they do the same stuff, for the same reasons, over and over again.

re: Hackers and Painters by Paul Graham

Kartik Agaram — Sat, 29 May 2004 00:41:00 GMT

[I haven't read the book but I have read <a href="http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html">"Why Nerds are Unpopular"</a> online.]

Why do children need fully developed brains for early apprenticeships? The flow of Paul Graham's argument is as follows: Today's schools are like prisons because we put children in an artificial environment where their actions have no real consequences. If we put them in a more realistic environment this barbarism may be avoided.

To Paul's argument I have the following to add: if you put them in a real-world environment they will make more mistakes earlier on. That hopefully means there will be fewer mistakes remaining to be made in adulthood.

re: Hackers and Painters by Paul Graham

Kartik Agaram — Sat, 29 May 2004 00:44:00 GMT

[I haven't read the book but I have read http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html ("Why Nerds are Unpopular") online.]

Why do children need fully developed brains for early apprenticeships? The flow of Paul Graham's argument is as follows: Today's schools are like prisons because we put children in an artificial environment where their actions have no real consequences. If we put them in a more realistic environment this
barbarism may be avoided.

To Paul's argument I have the following to add: if you put them in a real-world environment they will make more mistakes earlier on. That
hopefully means there will be fewer mistakes remaining to be made in adulthood.

re: Hackers and Painters by Paul Graham

John — Sat, 29 May 2004 03:46:00 GMT

I have mates who make many millions of dollars profit per year by *taking* money out of the stock market. They say they provide a service because they provide liquidity, but the truth is that every day these remarkably intelligent blokes are just taking wealth out of an imperfect system which they have a good understanding of. They don't actually 'produce' anything. From a social perspective it's a waste of 'human capital' (they could be curing cancer, etc.)

I'm a programmer, I produce lot's of code. Most of my code is for business. All I really do is hardcode the rules that help the rich get richer and more effectively control and monitor those under them. I'm not sure that I'm actually producing anything of value myself. From one perspective I'm probably freeing up people to do something else with their lives (when they lose their clerical job to my program), but I can't help wondering if the people who are collecting the money I save by removing human inefficiencies are actually going to let if fall back through to the people who used to do what my program now does..

Money is just a symbol for power that you can trade. Wealth is really only the result of human effort. One would hope that human effort would be spent on making things better for humans, but I'm not sure that it really is.

As for teen-angst I'm surprised it's not blantently obvious. It was pretty damn obvious to me when I was a teen. I wanted to have sex, and I wasn't allowed to. The human body is physically ready to reproduce at about 14 (YMMV), all the chemicals in your body are telling you to do that, but there is social pressure not to. It really is as simple as that. People aren't so uptight when they're getting laid, and teens are people too. Also, successive generations are getting more intelligent (this is true, your kids are smarter than you) and it is likely that they are also frustrated by social systems and attitudes that are idiotic.

I know about teen-angst. I'm 23 and I've still got it!

John.

re: Hackers and Painters by Paul Graham

仪表 — Tue, 01 Jun 2004 20:29:00 GMT

What's connection between hacker & Painter??
It's art

re: Hackers and Painters by Paul Graham

Joku — Fri, 11 Jun 2004 02:12:00 GMT

Kartik Agaram: Thanks for the link, I found that article have some very interesting points, some of which I can relate to thinking some of my first school years.

Some of the points seem a bit 'what planet this guy lives in' at first, but thinking further they do make sense atleast to certain degree.

re: Hackers and Painters by Paul Graham

Joku — Fri, 11 Jun 2004 03:13:00 GMT

> there's some biological basis for teenage behavior has some good support.

I think both arguments do make sense. My personal experience suggests that surrounding media, technology and people have had certainly the most influence on myself. For example I can track back my current musical taste very well to what I heard or found exciting at the age where one is usually most receptive for surrounding influences.

There's also been some degree of study into how children who've had home education have progressed compared to those in schools. I do not have anything to quote, but from a british documentary I saw on the subject, the general implication was that if kids who have already attained particular interests and can pursue those interest can progress quickly on them - even so to comapare a 6-8 yo's understanding of the subject to some of a 15-20 yo's. Certainly not a bad thing, if the home education just isn't too narrow/specialized - as maths, languages and physical development (no exercise/sports at all - not good I've noticed) are still important. But a lot of time in normal school that's not being used well could be used better if kids who already have interests could pursue those.

MBA

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