Windows vs WPF

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re: Windows vs WPF

Kiran — Sat, 13 Jun 2009 13:13:07 GMT

Hi Gerry

Reading your analogy with your HVAC/R background, I thought to might want to have a think by looking at a Microsoft analogy that would come to an opposite conclusion to what you have.

Here it goes: When Win 7 is released, the total demand for WinXP & Vista will still remain higher than Win7. So what does Microsoft do, concentrate their effort on WinXP & Vista because that is where the numbers is; no way!! Similarly the concentration should no longer be on WinForms but on WPF Apps.

The WinForms could well remain at the Ver 3.5 exams & going forward could be WPF. After all there is nothing major new added to WinForms in .NET 4.

Microsoft have always looked to the future but where this exam thing seems to be going just doesn't seem consistent to me.

re: Windows vs WPF

Gerry O'Brien — Sat, 13 Jun 2009 16:31:08 GMT

Kiran,

You are one of those 20% I'm talking about.

You have voiced your opinion many times in the past two blogs about what you want. Your comments have been heard however, the decision does not rest with you and I stand by my decisions.

As I stated, we will create the exam with the content that the majority of people want. We have to reach a balance point.

Gerry

re: Windows vs WPF

Kiran — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 00:03:35 GMT

Hi Gerry

I knew the decision didn't stand with me or for that matter anyone else but with you & I knew that when I first made my comment as you already said that it was 99% decided at that stage. I did realise that all you were doing was looking for something to justify your decision. It seems to me that you weren't looking to listen to reason although you might say so. I've given my comments so you can either listen or not it is up to you.

Since you indicate that the decision is 100% now, I see little to make any further comment to you on this & waste any furthe time with this. Good luck with you future exams.

re: Windows vs WPF

Trent F Guidry — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 04:34:29 GMT

Any comments on how Microsoft will make a single exam that will cover both Windows Forms and WPF?

Really, both Windows Forms and WPF could easily fill up two exams each in the current time limits placed on certification exams.

What are these exams going to look like? Are they just going to be survey exams of WPF and Windows Forms? I just don’t see how on earth Microsoft will cram both of these two enormous subjects into one single exam.

On a different track, for your comments:

"As a matter of fact, unless I am missing a lot of WPF knowledge (this may be true), WPF still does not contain a replacement WPF version for each and every Windows Forms control."

You are pretty much correct, unless you are using the beta version of Visual Studio 2010 and .NET 4.0. Kudos to the .NET 4.0 WPF and Visual Studio 2010 teams. It looks like they are finally filling in the missing pieces of WPF that have always made me reluctant to recommend WPF for a production UI.

I don’t know if Microsoft fully realizes just how much support they gave to WPF by dog-fooding it with Visual Studio 2010 and Blend. I can’t put into words just how much easier it is to recommend WPF when Microsoft is actually creating major products with it.

re: Windows vs WPF

Gerry O'Brien — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 06:53:58 GMT

Hi Trent,

Thanks for the comments. You are correct, one exam cannot possibly cover all that is present in both technologies. One exam can't cover everything for just one of these let alone two.

It's not my intention to do so. There will be coverage on Windows Forms as necessary but I fully suspect the experts we bring in will give the lion's share to WPF. Just a thought, if may not go that way but we'll wait and see.

I also believe that MS does indeed know how much of a boost they are giving WPF with VS 2010. I really like what I see in this next version. Now if I could just time to actually use it more...... :-)

Gerry

re: Windows vs WPF

Geoff — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 02:15:24 GMT

Hi Jerry,

I have missed out on previous debates but I am both an MCPD in Windows and Windows 3.5, I did a couple of hours study for 70-505, nothing much had really changed since 2.0. I will probably not use WPF anytime soon, I think combining the exam will be detrimental. I will probably be able to pass the 4.0 windows exam if combined with very shaky WPF skills, this does not help employers know where peoples skills lie. Projects will be either WPF or Windows, knowing people's skill set is important. I think there is little value in testing windows client programming with new exams if it is not going to be moving forward as a technolgy and it undermines the WPF skills test. Also from my perspective it is a waste of money and time taking exams to prove your skills are current when nothing has changed.

Thanks for your consideration.

P.S 80% of people can be wrong otherwise how else could we be in a credit crisis :-)

re: Windows vs WPF

Gerry O'Brien — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 04:21:30 GMT

Hi Geoff,

You're correct, the Windows exams didn't change much. However, keep in mind that Windows Developer will mean WPF. :-)

ps, I hope your reading and skills improve. I'll leave that as a puzzle for you to figure out. :-)

Gerry

re: Windows vs WPF

Alexey Zakharov — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 22:04:12 GMT

Hi Gerry,

I vote for RIA MCPD =)

We are currenlty use WPF and Silverlight only. So there is no way for us to get MCPD without useless studying of ADO.NET and WinForms.

For example why I think ADO.NET exam is useless for many people: perhaps 80% of people uses ORMs or P&P Data Access over it.

And surely WinForms should be OPTIONAL! I'm working with .NET about 5 years and I never use it at ALL!

Thanks,

Alexey Zakharov.

re: Windows vs WPF

Gerry O'Brien — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 22:45:46 GMT

Hi Alexey,

Thanks for the feedback.

Gerry

re: Windows vs WPF

David — Tue, 15 Dec 2009 15:48:09 GMT

I agree with Geoff, significant new technology and core development skills should require new exams.

What should not immediately require new exams are :-

1. New MS versions or product releases.

2. Exam re-structuring

3. Certification path changes etc.

The fact that you are innovating on the cert tracks should not punish those that have already certified. Old exams should remain valid on new tracks.

I think you are not taking Geoff's points onboard judging by your remarks.

People who certified on version 2.0 or 3.5 should not have to jump through hoops every ten minutes in order to remain employable or be able to market themselves in todays climate.

Certifications main value is to show employers a level of competency, it takes years for the employment market to understand a certification track, innovating this often just causes pain for developers that try to cetify.