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Inspect Your Pages in IE

Hi my name is Markus Mielke and I am a Program Manager working with Chris Wilson on CSS and platform support. Today, I would like to talk about DOM Inspectors for IE.

For analyzing web pages and drilling down into problems on a page it becomes more and more important to have a DOM Inspector handy. Not a full fledged debugger but something quick that allows a user to explore their HTML document and understand everything going on with a specific element. For example, a window will display a tree view of the document. As the user clicks in the tree view, the corresponding element in the document will be outlined. Next to the tree view will be detailed information about the element – attributes set, styles etc. FireFox, for example, enables a DOM inspector at install time. Since IE does not have an inspector natively integrated I hear a lot of rumblings in the community expressing a need for a DOM inspector in IE.

The truth is that there already are a wide variety of DOM Inspectors out for IE. One of our best kept secrets is our extensibility story that enables 3rd parties to build rich add-ons on top of IE (go check out marketplace). One of the obvious drawbacks is that these add-ons are harder to discover than if they would come in the box. On the other hand they provide the freedom to choose the one that fits your needs best. Go test them out for yourselves and be the judge!

Published Tuesday, May 10, 2005 4:56 PM by ieblog
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Comments

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Tuesday, May 10, 2005 5:43 PM by ShadowChaser
No offense intended, but IE's extensibility is definately not a "best kept secret".

Every spyware developer in the world knows about it :(

# Daily Links 11

Tuesday, May 10, 2005 6:51 PM by Jeffrey Vanneste

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Tuesday, May 10, 2005 6:45 PM by Jacob
How about one of those javascript consoles that firefox has? I spend ages trying to figure out javascript errors in IE as it just doesn't seem to tell me what is going on.

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Tuesday, May 10, 2005 8:19 PM by Jim

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Tuesday, May 10, 2005 8:57 PM by Louis Parks
Third party extension are great, but this explanation sounds like a cop-out to me. I say this because IE 5 shipped with (extra download) a DOM inspector and a few other goodies (Web Developer Accessories). They're only officially supported on IE 5 and 5.5, so 6 is just out of luck.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/ie/previous/webaccess/default.mspx

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Tuesday, May 10, 2005 10:50 PM by vamitra
I realize that third party is great. However, not everyone is going install IE, then spend $20 on a DOM inspector, followed by $15 on a html validator etc. Microsoft makes some of the best development software, why not add some Web Development features also.
Why not just make a small web development plugin that will make life easier with developers, and ship it with Visual Studio and Frontpage or something.

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Wednesday, May 11, 2005 3:19 AM by Dave
I find it odd that you'd link first to DOM inspectors that cost money (the first two links) rather than highlighting the free ones first which would be good enough for most people.

Having to pay money for features that are free in Firefox doesn't seem a good way to convince people that IE is the way to go.

As for the DOM inspector in Firefox that is also just an extension, you need to enable it in a custom install. Firefox also has a range of other free extensions available on their extensions website.

One thing: on the marketplace web site you linked to it calls IE the most popular internet browser. Please use the correct term which is 'web'. Using the correct term in this case wouldn't cause confusion.

I'm sick of people saying their Internet is broken when what they mean is a web site is inaccessible. Microsoft have a lot to blame for this. Originally the IE icon in old versions of windows was labelled "The Internet" and Internet Explorer is not much better - people need to know it's the web they're accessing.

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Wednesday, May 11, 2005 4:03 AM by Rhys Jeremiah
I've written a menu extension that you can launch from a the context menu which provides most of the functionality I need.

Best of all it's free, and now thanks to the mark of the web it works without having to mess with your security settings.
http://www.hairy-spider.com/PermaLink,guid,7ea5f669-d1a7-4b05-b915-cd14490daa95.aspx

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Wednesday, May 11, 2005 6:09 AM by jbot
For security reasons I wouldn't trust an IE third-party plugin (save from major companies like Macromedia, Adobe, etc) as far as I could throw it. Unlike Firefox (and indeed other FOSS products), these extensions don't have many many people checking the source, so I've got no way of being sure that they're not malware or such like. Hence I don't recommend anyone else install them, especially given the prevalence of malware ported to users' machines through the hole that IE has become.

Do us a favour, MS, make your own free, non-spyware development plugin for IE. How hard would that be!

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Wednesday, May 11, 2005 6:35 AM by sbc
Pity all the 'extensions' you get for IE are installed for all users (as not every user of a computer will use a DOM inspector). Also they are often shared with Windows Explorer - and vise versa (Windows Explorer extensions can show up in IE).

Sure there are third party extensions, but I feel the Firefox ones are of superior quality and often free. The Web Developer Toolbar has no equal for IE (the Web Accessiblity Toolbar is the closest, but still no where near as good).

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Wednesday, May 11, 2005 7:31 AM by Karl
It comes down to security. How can I trust this third party provider?

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Wednesday, May 11, 2005 9:30 AM by J. King
The correct term, Dave, is actually "Web", with a capital letter. I just thought I'd point that out.

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Wednesday, May 11, 2005 10:39 AM by Nathan
Markus,

Since you are working on the CSS team, I was wondering what kind of CSS support we are going to see. Are we having full CSS2 compliance?

Could you give us some details?

Thanks

# IE7?

Wednesday, May 11, 2005 10:56 AM by Tihiy
Please, say that this is fake:
http://www.flexbeta.net/gsurface/IE7.jpg

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Wednesday, May 11, 2005 11:17 AM by sbc
Looks like Firefox

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Wednesday, May 11, 2005 12:19 PM by DaveP
"I am a Program Manager working with Chris Wilson on CSS and platform support. Today, I would like to talk about DOM Inspectors for IE."

Um, okay... shouldn't you be working on CSS issues though? What does the DOM have to do CSS?

Guys, not to be rude, but I think it's time you go out and hire a well know web guru to help you understand what leading edge web developers are actually doing. I'm sure Chris can find a decent one.

I know you've got a lot of catching up to do, but you should be trying to accomidate the trends of the future, not those of 1999. Here's some suggestions:

1. CSS - Fix it. Completely. Get up to 2.0 (as speced, not your interpretation), then pick your favourite parts of 3.0 and implement them.
2. DOM - Drop your DOM completely in IE 8 (I know you won't by 7), and use the proper one: http://www.w3.org/2003/02/06-dom-support.html
You can make this a complete break. There's really no valid reason for you to be different here.
3. Really delve into the new ways that devs are working with the web. XHTML, CSS, "Ajax" etc. Help them make better websites. Stick to the standards!

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Wednesday, May 11, 2005 12:49 PM by Nathan
Word!!

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Wednesday, May 11, 2005 3:22 PM by patryk
DaveP: Enter.

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Wednesday, May 11, 2005 3:46 PM by outlook express errors
Try it, I think it's good way...
Outlook Express errors repair tool

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Thursday, May 12, 2005 12:26 AM by Block Sheep
why would I inspect my page with a browser which didn't even finish implementing HTML


what's a Q element, anyway?

aw, who cares -- let's just leave it out -- how important could it be?

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Thursday, May 12, 2005 7:14 AM by Pankaj
Please do fix your CSS support - get it up to the W3C standards
In fact we would have appreciated your comments much more had they been about what steps you are taking towards acheiving compliance with the CSS standard.

Ironically - On one hand Microsoft continually reinforces their committment to the W3C standards and on the other you have the most non-compliant web browser!

I think, we would all appreciate it a lot more - if you can get IE7 upto all the current standards as they are (pass the ACID2 test atleast) and not just implement your wierd interpretations of them.

Any additional proprietary extensions after achieving standards compliance is then a scoring point in favour of IE, otherwise in absence of standards compliance its all a moot point.

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Thursday, May 12, 2005 2:55 PM by Wolice! Hand over your browser!
Man, these prayer wheel ie is not css standard complaints are more annoying than the ie implementation flaws itself? To all appearances Markus is all ready with his css standard work, now heading for some innovation;-) And, Pankaj, doesn't he have every right to do his own business as well?

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Thursday, May 12, 2005 4:13 PM by Ψ
Markus,
I'd agree with Louis Parks there's something dubious with this thread. Reading your post one might expect that you've got something nifty ready and yet asking for public demand convincing the board to get it into the box?!?
Imo, seen in a sober light a DOM insector obviously shouldn't get caught up in the original box. It's an extra download like web developer accessories for ie7.. People already used and commuted these previous web developer accessories like R. Jeremiah did, or I did here http://people.freenet.de/scalable/files.html

How should I know what this thread is all about\-)

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Friday, May 13, 2005 2:39 AM by Denis
I don't like bashing Microsoft (no, really, I don't). But saying "Hey guys: look at these 3rd party softwares!" to justify that you won't be working on just that point is taking your visitor for childs.

What kind of comments do you expect ? "Oh yeah, that proprietary 3rd party DOM inspector is great!" ?? Aren't we on IE Blog ?

To tell the truth, firefox has extension system and therefore is easily open to 3rd party products too.

So, why this post? To definitively convince people not to use IE?

Denis
Free user.

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Friday, May 13, 2005 12:08 PM by efatland
Please, please please fix the CSS box model in IE7. The non-standard IE box model is the single biggest difficulty I face as a web designer. Teaching how to get around the box model problem when trying to convince students to code valid, accesible html is the single biggest difficulty I face as a web design teacher.

Please, please please also fix the bugs that we've turned into hacks to get around the box model problem (the * html hack, the underscore hack etc.).

And:
Thank you, thank you, thank you for being the team that brought us CSS support in the first place. If you hadn't done that, CSS would never be popular enough that we could complain about the lack of support for it...

And thank you, also, for disabling the BLINK tag...

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Friday, May 13, 2005 1:20 PM by Gustavo Munoz
See my comments at http://justavo.blogsome.com/2005/05/13/dom-inspectors-for-ie/

BTW, why doesn't MSDN support Trackbacks?
May be you have done so, but consider migrating to MSN Spaces system.

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Friday, May 13, 2005 1:24 PM by Ed Wittmann
This is totally off-topic, but the bug referenced in this Knowledgebase topic:

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;Q312496

has caused me much grief, and I have to rant about it or I'll blow up. (I just found this weblog)

Will IE7 finally *fully* support gzip/deflate compression? We'd be saving soo much bandwidth, but problems with CSS and javascript loading before fully decompressing, even on *patched* machines makes gzip compression totally unusable for us.

even just compressing the html part of the page screws things up if you have javascript anywhere in the page sometimes.

It's not app-specific, as other HTML engines appear to be able to cope with gzip encoding.

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Saturday, May 14, 2005 7:41 AM by ant
What is the point of that first link? Why bother with a 2MB download (that you have to pay for after 21 days!), when for an extra 2MB you can get the same functionality plus a free 21st century browser?

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Sunday, May 15, 2005 3:58 PM by Turnip
Please correct the spelling of Firefox.

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Monday, May 16, 2005 7:13 PM by Chris
And Microsoft doesn't even know what it's copying in the photocopier. It's Firefox, not FireFox. Do you want ice with that burn, Dean?

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Tuesday, May 17, 2005 12:09 AM by MINOBE Hiroyuki
I desigin CSS properties definitions width "_propertyName" (property names started with an underscore) to fix for Internet Explorer, because support of CSS in IE 5.x and IE 6.x is NOT based upon W3C standards.
When support of CSS in IE 7.0 is improved, "_propertyName" may work wrong on IE 7.0.
So I wish IE 7.0 ignore "_propertyName" if IE 7.0 is based upon W3C standards strictly.

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 8:00 AM by Kenneth
http://kenneth.kufluk.com/tools/PageScanner.hta

A handy util I wrote. Not perfect (yet), but makes styles and properties easily visible for most page elements. Particularly good for CSS problems like "where is that margin coming from?"

I'd love to see something like this thrown into a new developer tools for IE7. Maybe an update/repackage of the web accessories?

# re: Inspect Your Pages in IE

Wednesday, May 18, 2005 8:11 AM by Kenneth
Sorry - if you're worried about nasty code in there (as you should be), just save to desktop and view source - it's just harmless javascript.

# Support Standards... like AJAX?

Friday, May 27, 2005 8:51 AM by Leszek
DaveP, you say
:"Really delve into the new ways that devs are working with the web. XHTML, CSS, "Ajax" etc. Help them make better websites. Stick to the standards!"

Is it just me, or is there a contradiction with "Stick to the standards" and AJAX? as far as I know, AJAX works mostly on a non-standard extension to javascript, xmlhttprequest, which was originally introduced by microsoft, yet isn't in any of the stadrads.

# ajax で動的に作成している Web ページを再表示可能な HTML コードで保存する方法

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ajax を使いだすとその時点の HTML コードがどうなっているか(innerHTMLですね)を確認したくなることが多々あります。 DOM とか innerHTML に突っ込んでいるうちに、正しい状態になっているのか不安になってきたり、不具合改修したときにきちんと反映されているか比較してみたくなったり、、。 これまで IE の「IE DOM Explorer」や Firefox の 「FireB...

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