IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Mirronelli — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 02:13:06 GMT

Does this mean that if an addon crashes in one tab that the other tabs remain open? Or you restart the browser and try to recover the session anyway.

I have seen ie8 go down as a whole and then recover the tabs. So it was either caused by an ie bug (not an addon) or you really always restart the browser and recover the tabs?

Nice work anyway. I heard a lot of people complaining that FF crash recovery is cool. Yours is now cool too.

If the tabs are in separate processes why do we need to restart all ie windows when changing "emulate ie7" state?

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

IEdude — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 03:59:38 GMT

Have you any information on IE8 webbrowser control in general or related to this topic ? There is no information for IE webbrowser control since IE7 from you guys.

Are you not allowed to talk about IE COM Interface ? Do you still support this interface for IE in the future or not ?

I've evaluate the (piece of sh*t).NET wrapper for IE, and still waiting for something better.

.NET politics is so stupid, as you can see it with Windows Vista. Lessons learned, now give us a new IE8-COM control !

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Michael Janke — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 05:05:48 GMT

How does the change in the process model affect the security of the browser or the browsers ability to maintain the security of the desktop?

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Mark Sowul — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 05:14:11 GMT

If each tab is a separate process, shouldn't each process in the second diagram have only one single tab?

Where are managed add-ons?

jessejacob — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 06:32:49 GMT

Great, the browser is ready to recover gracefully from bad add-on crashes! Now that it's safe to open the floodgates to potentially poorly-written add-ons, can we have some way to write managed code add-ons for the browser? I'd be happy with a supported shim from Microsoft (like the pre-VSTO Office add-in shims)! C'mon IE team, the time has come.

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

David — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 07:03:32 GMT

If the tabs are in separate processes why do we need to restart all ie windows when changing "emulate ie7" state?

thats a vary good and well said ? i been wanting to no that too evere time i hit the emulate ie7 it dos not work for me like why have some in if it dos not work?

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Steven Roussey — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 08:23:08 GMT

Can we make a tab run under a separate process if we want (or a specific domain)?

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Luc — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:30:06 GMT

@Mirronelli

yes, if a tab crashes, the other tabs remain open

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

pollyx — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:08:12 GMT

I would also appreciate to get some information about a IE8 webbrowser control in NET Framework. With IE8 Beta 1 installed, .NET 2.0 SP1 still uses the IE7 engine for rendering at the moment.

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

virtualblackfox — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 12:07:31 GMT

I see a nice feature linked tot that in my IE8 on XP.

While displaying the page http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2008/Mar-10.html it crash the tab (due to the google javascript on the right, as it also crash if i extract the code), then restore it, crash again.

... And then it give up with the message "Internet Explorer has stopped trying to restore this website. It appears that the website continues to have a problem" and doesn't enter an infinite loop.

Nice (but the crash isn't).

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Stifu — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 13:39:47 GMT

virtualblackfox: I like how it's the website that "continues to have a problem", and not IE. :p

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Richard — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 15:33:51 GMT

Where is the list of known bugs in IE8 beta 1?

I want to file some bug reports but I can't find the list of "known issues" and I obviously don't want to waste any time filing dups.

Also when I try to log in to post a bug report in Connect I can't. It only shows me the bugs already entered, there is no link to add a new one, what gives? I thought this was the public bug tracking tool?

rich

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Paul D. Waite — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 15:37:19 GMT

> You may have noticed that computers come pre-loaded with all sorts of software

I think you mean “Windows computers”.

> a lot of this software is useful and works well

Ha ha ha ha! Aw, you guys.

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Martin Bennedik — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 16:05:38 GMT

When debugging an ASP.NET project with Viusal Studio 2008, IE8 Beta 1 always tries to restore the tab I am debugging.

Can this feature be turned off during debugging?

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Dave — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 16:16:20 GMT

In a more polite way than IEdude, I'd also like to request information on how current client-developers using the WebBrowser control will be affected by IE8. I know a lot of things may still be up in the air, but *our* product depends on *your* product so we need plenty of advance notice to test it.

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Grim — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 16:54:13 GMT

http://www.grim-games.com/forum

Report a Webpage Problem Tool has a problem

Report a Webpage Problem Tool has a problem — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:33:19 GMT

The Report a Webpage Problem Tool, has a problem.

You can't use the tool any time a modal dialog appears (e.g. alert, confirm, prompt, print, open file, save file, add favorite, organize favorites, web developer tools, internet options, delete browsing history, etc.

I have a great idea though, how about you open up a public bug tracking database online somewhere, where testers, developers and users can enter a bug/ticket with information about buggy page, feature (or missing feature). This system could enable users to upload a screenshot (using the tool of their choice), and even a simplified test case that would help the MS developers isolate the exact bug!

Lets call this idea:

"INTERNET EXPLORER PUBLIC BUG TRACKING"!

==========================================

heck, we'll even let you patent that line (free of charge!)

In case the sarcasm isn't obvious, the community wants REAL bug tracking. Stop doing a half-baked job of it, and open up a real system.

I'm sure the folks at Bugzilla can give you a hand, or if FREE software is too good for you, the folks at Fog Creek have a pretty darn good one called FogBugz. Better yet, they'll host it for you, so you don't need to worry about pestering the folks at Connect.

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Jack T. — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 17:38:52 GMT

Bug Report: JT-016

IE8B1:

Scope: Browser UI User Interaction

Synopsis: If a user types in a long fragment of text in a textarea (e.g. enough to cause scrolling), then when at the end of the text fragment (caret focus near or at the end of the text) if the user presses CTRL+A to "select all", the browser should NOT force a scroll to the top of the selection. This behavior is distracting, and appears to the user that the content has changed.

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

PilotBob — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:10:51 GMT

How does this affect sessions. If I am correct in IE7 session data is the same within the same process. So, if a new IE window is stated from the start menu, it is a new process, but if it is started with Ctrl-N it is the same process.

Since each tab will be a seperate process, does this mean that session data is no longer shared from tab to tab? If so, VERY BAD!

BOb

IE7 Mode

Nick — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:17:08 GMT

beta functionality wish list item:

Drag the Emulate IE7 button to the New (empty, blank whatever you call it) Tab to open a new tab running the ie7 renderer.

Alternate: Add an option to the tab context menu (right click on the tab) to switch between ie8 and ie7 modes. When switching, use the tab recovery feature and reopen the tab in the other mode.

Alternate: Right click option to "Open in new IE8 tab" or "Open in new ie7 tab"

While I can see major benefits for normal use, this feature would be invaluable during the betas at least.

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Nick — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:20:12 GMT

Another thought. I'm not familiar with the internals at all, but would this new structure allow the embedding of a firefox renderer as a tab?

Could prove very productive to developers

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Shawn Woods [Microsoft] — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:39:21 GMT

@IEdude

@Dave

The Web Browser Control (WebOC) is not impacted by the IE process model since it is a COM object instanciated in the caller's process. It was not impacted by Protected Mode support in IE7 nor is it impacted by LCIE in IE8. LCIE only applies when executing IE as the browser application.

As with IE7 Protected Mode, the initial IE8 iexplore.exe process launched may not be the process that navigates and displays the URL. The IE7 APIs and COM interfaces for starting/accessing IE as a stand alone application were enhanced to deal with this change and are supported in IE8. Though the process model underneath is different in IE8, the need and APIs for finding the process that navigates the URL has not.

Specifically wrt LCIE, the IELaunchURL API has been updated in IE8 to return the tab process information (not the frame process).

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Bodero — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:43:58 GMT

Am I to assume that this is why I can no longer drag a link from a page and drop it onto the address bar, or a tab? (You couldn't drag a link to a tab in IE7 either FWIW).

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Alz — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 19:53:48 GMT

This is all nice, but if it's going to crawl, who cares? FF is pretty darned fast. Microsoft should really look at the speed issue.

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Shawn Woods [Microsoft] — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 20:05:38 GMT

@Mirronelli

There are two types of "crashes" in IE8 with LCIE: a tab process crash and a frame process crash.

When a tab crashes, it will take down all tabs running in its tab process. IE as a whole does not crash and will recover "in place" the tab(s) that crashed. Reliability here becomes a trade off between how many tabs and tab processes are used; clearly, running each tab in its own process is both the most reliable (one tab will not crash other tabs) and the most costly (in resources).

Our design intention is to support multiple tab processes and distribution of tabs across those processes. However, this is not supported in IE8 Beta1.

IE8 Beta1 uses a single tab process at any integrity level to contain all tabs for a frame process, so the "multiple tab processes" question is moot for Beta1. In Beta1 therefore, if a Protected Mode (low-IL) tab crashes, all tabs in Protected Mode for that frame will crash and be restored; tabs for the frame at medium-IL would not crash.

If the frame process crashes, the frames as well as the tabs will be recovered. The crash will look essentially the same as IE7 or earlier crashing.

re: Speed

Alz — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 20:22:04 GMT

Adding on to me speed complaints, look at this:

http://talkback.zdnet.com/5208-12353-0.html?forumID=1&threadID=45386&messageID=838124

So if Microsoft spent some time optimizing the string functions, then the overall speed would be better.

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Shawn Woods [Microsoft] — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 20:22:20 GMT

@Michael Janke

The IE8 LCIE process model maintains the IE7 Protected Mode principles; Tabs that run at low-IL have the same sandboxing as in IE7.

IE8 improves security of IE in two ways.

First, since both low-IL and medium-IL tabs are now displayed in the same frame (a better user experience), corporations may find it more acceptable to run intranet sites with Protected Mode turned off. This would place intranet site pages into a different tab process (at medium-IL) from internet sites (in a low-IL process). This process and IL separation of intranet and internet sites may be desirable.

Second, more of the browser's control code runs isolated from the tabs (which execute script, extensions, et al) so that the frame process part of the browser is less susceptible to attack.

On the engineering side, LCIE increases the surface area exposed to the low-IL browser code and we are taking steps to ensure the security of that exposed area.

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Shawn Woods [Microsoft] — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 20:32:19 GMT

@PilotBob

IE8 Beta1 places all tabs for a given IL for a started iexplore.exe into a single tab process, so the behavior of sessions/cookies is exactly the same as previous versions of IE. Sessions will not be shared across IL levels.

If IE8 supports multiple tab processes at the same IL level in the future, the session/cookie issue will be addressed.

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Ted — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 20:34:25 GMT

@Alz: they already did. Run the test in IE8 and you find that it's >300% faster.

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Jack T. — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 20:45:01 GMT

Bug Report: JT-017

IE8B1:

Scope: HTML/CSS in Forms

Synopsis: If an input type="text" element is placed within a block element (e.g. a div) with a background color, a rendering error will occur in the following scenario in IE8.

Type in a word or two. Double click or press CTRL+A to select the text (it will colorize with your systems highlight color), now click anywhere else in the text box, the highlight will disapear, but the background from the div underneath the input box will render through the background of the text "span" within in the input box.

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Jack T. — Wed, 12 Mar 2008 21:06:13 GMT

Can we please open up the bug tracking site? this is getting really annoying.

I just ran some simple test pages in IE8 Standards mode and .setAttribute() / .getAttribute() is failing miserably for a "fixed" bug.

Of 29 basic Elements, setting the "style" attribute failed on all of them for starters.

Ugh!

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Someone — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 02:44:43 GMT

Please, PLEASE tell me that is will be possible to turn off this useless resource-hungry feature!!

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Rob J. — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 03:25:56 GMT

I can't believe you guys are working on IE8 - I am still struggling with the mess you made with IE7! What's being done with the "scale-to-fit" debacle and not being able to force printing to 100% from JavaScript. Will you supply every one of my customers with a magnifying glass for the #2 font you render the pages in? Have you ever tried to print content in an iframe? I have a page with 7 pages of content in an iframe that I cannot print unless I select it all first. The users experience went from a one button click to a 3 or 4 keyboard strokes and a dialog with two drop downs to deal with - do you have anyone on the team that considers ergonomics before you willy-nilly implement things? How about usability testing - cut from the budget? I have disasters galore on my hands as a result of IE7 and Microsoft is off creating the next mess before they clean up the one at hand - how about putting all your efforts into a SP for IE7 that at least restores the functionality of IE6? And PLEASE - get rid of the fool phishing filter pop-up that shows up all the time no matter what I do to disable it. When I want it off I mean off - I don't even want to see a disabled icon.

Internet Explorer 8 Beta 1: First Impressions

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Internet Explorer 8 Beta 1: First Impressions

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Morten Nissen — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 13:17:33 GMT

For more info about IE8 and other problems / solutions / bug reportslook here: http://www.microsoft.com/communities/newsgroups/list/en-us/default.aspx?dg=microsoft.public.internetexplorer.beta&cat=en_us_2BAF8EC5-645C-4477-A380-0F1CF6C102F9&lang=en&cr=us

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

thacker — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 19:27:48 GMT

The manner in which tabs are created and their respective order appears to be an improvement for usability and accessibility. Caveat: I can't explicitly recall how IE7 managed tab order.

In terms of accessibility, perhaps consider inheritance of the zoom setting for a new tab from its parent or process?

Thanks.

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Chris Quirke — Sat, 15 Mar 2008 15:19:26 GMT

It would be good to have UI feedback on the tabs to indicate which tabs are in Protected Mode and which are not - e.g. tint the tab pink if not in Protected Mode.

Risks of cross-tab exploits?

IE8 Beta 1 arendajatele ja disaineritele

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Ehkki IEBlog teatas juba möödunud nädala kolmapäeval, et IE8 esimene beta on väljas, polnud mul mahti sellega enne tänast tegeleda. Põhjuseks CeBIT 2008 ja sinna järgi kevadiste projektidega alustamine. Internet Explorer 8 esimene beta on mõ...

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Nidonocu — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 07:53:34 GMT

People who think this feature is resource hungry need slapping.

Anyway, one request to the IE guys, could you look in to the issue of pages hanging due to complex scripts or add-ins? These still cause the whole of IE8 to lock up (but not crash) due to their busy state. It would be nice to kill a hung tab as easily as a hung process in Windows.

re: IE8 and Loosely-Coupled IE (LCIE)

Shawn Woods [Microsoft] — Mon, 17 Mar 2008 21:29:07 GMT

@Someone

Thank you for your input. LCIE is an architectural change that underlies multiple current and possible future features or improvements, many of which do not involve a tradeoff between resources/performance and the feature. For example, the process model change in IE8 Beta1 eliminates the need for the IEUser.exe process, reducing some of the IE startup cost and resources on Vista and later operating systems.

@Nidonocu

Thank you for your input. The process model change makes it feasible to better decouple the frame from the tabs for hangs as well as crashes and that is a reliability improvement that we are considering.

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