the Zune issue

infoblog » the Zune issue

infoblog » the Zune issue — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:57:30 GMT

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re: the Zune issue

marlenac — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 06:30:43 GMT

I was hoping you would post your opinion of the Zune defect.

I agree with you. It's always much easier to get meaning from code like that in a test library than from a subjective discussion. I plan to circulate your post in my own group at work which is oh-so-painfully inching towards automated unit test/system test. Should make for a great discussion. Thanks!

re: the Zune issue

strazzerj — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:04:33 GMT

"If we communicated in terms of test cases, we could actually accumulate knowledge and spread it to all corners of the company (we have a lot of apps and devices that do date math) much faster than sitting around explaining the vagaries of counting time."

Wow! I guess I couldn't disagree more.

Testers using libraries of Test Cases created by unknown others for unknown contexts doesn't seem like a very good solution to me.

Test Cases aren't "knowledge" any more than Times Tables are mathematics!

Without understanding the vagaries of counting time, the professional developer or tester simply cannot be effective.

re: the Zune issue

kylereed — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 01:38:17 GMT

"Test Cases aren't "knowledge" any more than Times Tables are mathematics!"

Hmm, I have to agree with Mr. JW here. Times tables, once agreed to be correct, can be used by someone who doesn't know (or in some cases doesn't need to know) multiplication to verify that the output of a multiplication function is correct without a complete understanding of the mechanics.

As a junior tester, I simply don't understand every aspect of the software I'm testing to the degree that a senior tester might. If there are well thought out test cases - agreed to be correct - that pertain to my code, It would be foolish for me to think that I understand the problem better than someone who's seen this type of problem before.

That's not to say that taking a blind approach is correct either. Any tester worth their salary had better make every effort to understand the problems and the patterns that those cases are trying to catch and know enough about their code to identify discrepancies, special cases and gaps in coverage.

My 2 cents

re: the Zune issue

guruparan — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:49:41 GMT

I am curious to know why in a mp3 device (Zune) there shud be a "blocking" code at startup with respect to date & time?

Its perfectly fine if it is a beta app which SHUD have a timebomb to expire the app..but for a RTM this shud be a case...Anyway, hope in future these wont happen!

re: the Zune issue

strazzerj — Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:16:48 GMT

@kylereed,

Multiplication Tables are great - unless you need to perform subtraction, or if you need to multiply 6-digit numbers.

But if you knew and understood mathematics (or even calculators), you would almost certainly never use such Tables again, right?

"Well thought out test cases - agreed to be correct" are interesting, if they are designed for your particular code. If not, then all the agreement of correctness in the world may have very little value.

re: the Zune issue

kylereed — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 04:20:45 GMT

I think we can agree that the math analogy falls a little short here.

Let's say that a tester is working on a caching product with a real timeline so they don't have unlimited time to spend learning about the _fringe_ problems (like the Zune leap year problem) associated with caching. In this case, wouldn't it be better to have test cases associated with the caching _pattern_ that the tester can review? Sure you can argue that it would be better to teach them about the in's and out's of caching and I would agree, but that would take longer and assumes that the tester could still come up with the same caliber of problems that an expert in caching could.

I doubt that JW was implying that you could give someone a magic set of test cases that would work for any piece of code. I also assume that he was talking about more abstract test cases that apply to a pattern rather than about concrete cases that have been designed to hit every code branch. With that, I feel there is a lot of benefit that can be had from architecting test cases that others - less familiar with the problem - can use as a guide to help ensure completeness in their testing.

re: the Zune issue

pberry — Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:56:16 GMT

Re: Transferable testing knowledge

It is possible to transfer testing knowledge but you have to be quite general about the subject. Even though this might reduce your tight, comprehensive set of ace test cases to a dozen bullet points, they at least serve to get your audience thinking about the subject under test in ways they might not have done if they had not read your notes.

YAGNI II: bezpieczeństwo

Wampiryczny blog — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 00:47:10 GMT

YAGNI jest podejściem mocno minimalistycznym. Jak ma się to do bezpieczeństwa? Czy (pośrednio) moje wymagania nie są czymś zbędnym? Czymś, co dodaje nie potrzebną złożoność do problemu? Odpowiedź krótka: NIE.A teraz wersja nieco dłuższa.

re: the Zune issue

alanpa — Sat, 10 Jan 2009 06:56:02 GMT

"I am curious to know why in a mp3 device (Zune) there shud be a "blocking" code at startup with respect to date & time?"

I'll give you a 3 letter hint as to why (I assume) the zune calculates the date on startup.

DRM

VSTS Links - 11/12/2009

Team System News — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:08:21 GMT

Brian Harry on TFS Installation troubleshooting guide James Whittaker on the Zune issue Jim Lamb on TFS

re: the Zune issue

strazzerj — Mon, 12 Jan 2009 18:19:42 GMT

@Team System News:

"http://teamsystemrocks.com/blogs/team_system_news/archive/2009/01/12/vsts-links-11-12-2009.aspx"

VSTS Links - 11/12/2009 ???

Is this another one of those messages from the future?

If so, who wins the Super Bowl this year?

A szoftver minőségbiztosítási eszközök valós lehetőségei és korlátai

Termékinformációk fejlesztőknek — Wed, 04 Feb 2009 08:09:30 GMT

[Nacsa Sándor, 2009. január 13. – február 3.]  A minőségbiztosítás kérdésköre szinte alig ismert

Visual Studio Team System 2008 Test Edition with MSDN Premium Subscription

Termékinformációk fejlesztőknek — Fri, 06 Feb 2009 15:02:50 GMT

[ Nacsa Sándor , 2009. február 6.] Ez a Team System változat a webalkalmazások és –szolgáltatások teszteléséhez

re: the Zune issue

jwgrenning — Sat, 28 Feb 2009 09:23:27 GMT

Interesting discussion of why product testing might not be able to find the bug. I did not realize this code only ran during startup. Like you suggested, unit testing is the place to find this bug. I used test driven bug fixing to isolate the bug. You, and I and most people that look at the publicized snippet of code got the bug wrong. Here is the real story demonstrated with automated unit tests.

http://www.renaissancesoftware.net/blog/archives/38