VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Updates to Visual Studio UI

Jeff Beehler's Blog — Thu, 14 May 2009 19:47:42 GMT

Jason Zander, the Visual Studio general manager, just posted a follow up to his post regarding the new

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Shrike — Thu, 14 May 2009 20:39:49 GMT

Please, also consider the following scenario during your test:

Open a solution which is under source control (TFS)

Try to add a new C# file into project which is not checked out

VS automatically get the latest version of a project

A server version of a project is newer that ours.

VS asks us would we like to reload a project.

We say "yes".

A prjoect unload and than load again.

I experienced VS very significant performance degradation.

Often VS continue consume CPU after projects are reloaded without any visible reason.

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Dan Smith — Thu, 14 May 2009 20:45:41 GMT

Thank you for listening and removing the triangles. The +/- glyphs really do look much cleaner and it makes a big difference.

Are the triangles also removed from the other places they crept into e.g. the solution explorer? It would be nice to have consistency across the board.

I've also noticed on some recent screencasts that the expand/collapse glyphs fade out of view when the cursor leaves the window a la the maddening fading tree view "feature" introduced in Vista. Again, just because Vista jumped off the cliff of insanity, does not mean it's a good idea to follow it over the edge. Hiding information that could once be seen at a glance is a real productivity drain.

As for the new outlining features, it's great that you guys have taken the time to think about these and they look like they're going to be really handy. I especially like the ability to collapse a region from any point just by clicking the margin :-)

Two other minor points from the screenshot:

* Why is the top toolbar so tall? First impressions are important and you probably don't want the first thing users say when they load up VS2010 to be "ugggg!".

* Looks like there's an extra line at the end of the collapsed region preview popup, hope that's on the cards for being fixed.

Overall things are looking good, can't wait to get hold of the upcoming beta and try out all the new features :-)

Coming Soon Visual Studio 10 Beta 1

Pedro Silva's Blog — Thu, 14 May 2009 21:04:29 GMT

Well if JasonZ can blog about it , I suppose that means I can too. :) He talks about some changes in

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Jasonz — Thu, 14 May 2009 22:13:52 GMT

Shrike - we do track exactly the scenario you describe. in fact one place we've improved in VS2010 is get speeds.

Dan - one of our goals is to be a well behaved Windows application including following the themes. you will see the same outlining mode for things like tree views, but we made the changes to the editor.

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Yaakov Davis — Thu, 14 May 2009 22:32:22 GMT

Not directly related to the post, but what about Edit & Continue?

Since the release of C# 3.0 and LINQ, the feature has become almost useless. It simply don't work in classes containing LINQ queries, that is, everywhere.

Are there plans to make it work in more scenarios?

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Enrico — Fri, 15 May 2009 00:40:58 GMT

I totally agree with Yaakov Davis. Also Edit and Continue doesn't work when compiling to x64. Hope that get fixes too.

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

James Hancock — Fri, 15 May 2009 00:44:14 GMT

The biggest problem I face is that if a .cs file gets over about 1000 lines, it starts chugging and taking forever to edit anything.

This is common when dealing with Windows Forms because of all of the events etc. on a standard form, so re factoring isn't an option.

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Huseyin Tufekcilerli — Fri, 15 May 2009 00:47:11 GMT

It would be good to have syntax colored code in those tooltips when you hover over ellipsis.

VS2010: On Triangles and Performance - Jason Zander

DotNetShoutout — Fri, 15 May 2009 01:29:51 GMT

Thank you for submitting this cool story - Trackback from DotNetShoutout

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Des — Fri, 15 May 2009 03:40:40 GMT

And still you don't address the number of comments you got in the previous post regarding the Ribbon.

Have you used VS, do you not notice how many menus and toolbars there are? With this many; the menu/toolbar metaphore is impractical, even if you don't want to use the ribbon you still need to come up with a better solution than almost 40 toolbars and hundreds of commands littered on the menu.

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Mark Rendle — Fri, 15 May 2009 09:11:01 GMT

Good to know that Rico's on the performance case. It's always nice when a new version runs faster than the old one.

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Robert — Fri, 15 May 2009 09:59:01 GMT

What's with the small screenshots? Is it meant to hide WPF blur?

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Jasonz — Fri, 15 May 2009 10:30:47 GMT

Yaakov/Enrico - I've passed on your feedback to the debugger and langauge teams

James - scaling to large text files is a performance scenario, I'll make sure your scenario is on the list

Huseyin - thanks for the suggestion

Des - we've debated Ribbons repeatedly in planning for VS2010. They are not on our plan of record for this release, sorry

Mark - I'll tell him you said so :)

Robert - not trying to hide anything, I'm using Live Writer for my blog and I've found the default column size for my format clips to the right. the beta is coming out soon so give it a shot and you'll be able to load it up on multiple 20" monitors with the new tear off window support

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Boris Dušek — Fri, 15 May 2009 10:32:59 GMT

In VC++, when having a property sheet system, after reordering macros or adding a new one, hitting "Apply" in the property pages dialog sometimes takes a few (tens) of seconds.

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Hitesh — Fri, 15 May 2009 12:24:03 GMT

Hi Jason,

2 Thumbs-up for good work!

I am glad to see that your team has taken care of many suggestions but I still don’t see any work being done to implement all time great feature of classic VS-6 (VB 6 IDE) “procedure view” and “full module view” option on bottom of the editor. “Procedure view” helps developer to concentrate on a single procedure without having looking at other part of the code. This is very imp from developers point of view when criticle changes / debuggins is done. I request you to pl pl pl bring back the classic feature.

Hitesh Davey

Chennai - INDIA

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Waqas — Fri, 15 May 2009 15:44:37 GMT

Hi Jason, Where is the most requested RIBBON? I think there were a lot of comments about adding ribbon to VS. But you didn't added that? Why? R there any plans to add this UI ...

New and Notable 321

Sam Gentile's Blog (if (DeveloperTask == Communication && OS == Windows) — Fri, 15 May 2009 17:08:37 GMT

C#/VS2010 Null is Not Empty VS2010: On Triangles and Performance - It sure looks like the *very* soon Beta 1 will exhibit some great work on Outlining and Performance Parallel Tasks - new Visual Studio 2010 debugger window ASP.NET Tip #61: Did you know...How

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Pop Catalin — Fri, 15 May 2009 22:02:05 GMT

> Hi Jason, Where is the most requested RIBBON? I think there were a lot of comments about adding ribbon to VS. But you didn't added that? Why? R there any plans to add this UI ...

I sure hope not, the ribbon is a good UI for office, not for VS imho. There's really no need for a ribbon, it occupies too much space and, besides VS users use shortcuts allot more than clicking buttons on a menu ...

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Amit Mohindra [MSFT] — Sat, 16 May 2009 04:31:59 GMT

>In VC++, when having a property sheet system, after reordering macros or adding a new one, hitting "Apply" in the property pages dialog sometimes takes a few (tens) of seconds.

Hi Boris,

Thanks for sharing the feedback with us. We wanted to clarify if this is the behavior that you are experiencing is in VS2010 or VS2008.

It does seem excessive that it takes 10 seconds to apply the settings. Does your property sheet have nested property sheet?

We tried to repro the scenario in-house however on a simple project both for VS2010 and VS2008 and were not able to directly reproduce the behavior.

We would definitely like to debug and resolve the issue. Please feel free to contact me at amitmo at microsoft dot com and I would be glad to help.

Thanks,

Amit Mohindra

Program Manager

Visual C++ Team

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Waqas — Sat, 16 May 2009 19:43:30 GMT

> I sure hope not, the ribbon is a good UI for office, not for VS imho. There's really no need for a ribbon, it occupies too much space and, besides VS users use shortcuts allot more than clicking buttons on a menu ...

Whit this many commands and menus in VS, its not feasible to stay glued with the *old* fashioned menus. Ribbon provides with the ease of discovery of functions. If you need more space, can't you autohide the ribbon in office 2007? (Or you can buy more place in Mars!)

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Steve Naughton (MVP) — Sat, 16 May 2009 23:11:31 GMT

I actually liked the triangles, will there be the ability to turn this on in the final version?

Steve

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Jasonz — Sun, 17 May 2009 07:09:06 GMT

Boris - Amit from the VC++ team will try to follow up with you on your issue

Hitesh - we don't have that view right now, although in theory it could be written as a new editor extension.

Waqas/Pop - We've debated the ribbon a lot and I've found smart people can agree to disagree :) Regardless for VS2010 we will not be adding a ribbon. We'll contiue to think about pros / cons on this one and perhaps in a future version we may consider adding one (with options to allow you to use it or not).

Steve - sorry, we took the triangles out. The triangles really worked the same way as the [+] or [-] in the current version, the key thing we added back in was to actually draw the line so you can see it. Let us know how you like it with Beta 1.

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Waqas — Sun, 17 May 2009 07:48:00 GMT

What do you mean by a FUTURE VERSION? Either Beta 2, RTM, RC of VS 2010 or VS 2011 VS 2012 whichever is nex? Thanks

Visual Studio 2010 Beta 1 Available Today

KodefuGuru — Mon, 18 May 2009 16:35:14 GMT

Visual Studio 2010 Beta 1 Available Today

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Stas — Mon, 18 May 2009 16:57:54 GMT

Looking at the pics I assume VS 2010 will open new tabs to the right of currently opened ones, not to the left as it is in VS 2005 and 2008 (which was stupid and counter-intuitive, IMHO). Am I right? :) Or not? :(

What about handling of opened tabbed documents? I would like them to appear in the list in the order I opened them, and that order is preserved when I go to the currently hidden tab (like in IE), and not that tabs are listed alphabetically and hidden tab jumps to the top when I open it (other stupid features of VS 2005/8). Or go back to how it was in VS 2003. :)

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

rh — Mon, 18 May 2009 21:09:50 GMT

Thank you, thank you! The triangles were going to drive me crazy. Long live [+]!

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Waqas — Mon, 18 May 2009 21:37:39 GMT

It's not available today. It's available TOMORROW. I mean my clock is 12 hours ahead USA.

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Keith Patrick — Tue, 19 May 2009 21:46:50 GMT

I musta missed something, because there is no (enabled) option to install the MSDN documentation, nor is there a link on the download page. Kind of a pain on my netbook, as it's detached from the network at work, and I'm doing some eval on the new framework between work builds.

ASP 4 - Whirlwind Tour around .NET 4 (and Visual Studio 2010) Beta 1

ASPInsiders — Wed, 20 May 2009 02:19:57 GMT

Hey, we released Visual Studio 2010 Beta 1. JasonZ has a great post with piles of details and a metric

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Mike — Wed, 20 May 2009 19:43:29 GMT

Yikes! Just loading the VS2010 IDE and an empty console app project takes ~200 MB of RAM vs. 50 MB in VS2008! I remember not so long ago when my entire hard-drive was 200 MB. What the heck are you using all that memory for?!

Visual Studio 2010 Beta1 Released!

Visual Studio Editor Blog — Thu, 21 May 2009 11:01:15 GMT

It’s official: Visual Studio 2010 Beta1 has shipped! Check out this page for the official product information

re: VS2010: On Triangles and Performance

Sergey Vlasov — Thu, 21 May 2009 17:01:34 GMT

Stas - VS 2010 Beta opens new tabs to the left of currently opened ones as it is in VS 2008 and hidden tab also jumps to the left corner when you select it.

Visual Studio 2010 (and .Net Framework 4.0) Beta 1

Software Development: a Profession, a Science, an Art. — Mon, 25 May 2009 23:20:56 GMT

Visual Studio 2010 (and .Net Framework 4.0) Beta 1