Saddle Up to the MiniBar

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Mario Goebbels — Thu, 06 Oct 2005 17:34:59 GMT

It'd be nice if the "shyness" of minibar could be controlled by parameters. While I haven't used the application yet (still waiting for beta application to be accepted), what the video showed looked fine to me in regard to "shyness". I don't want things like this annoying me or other powerusers to death, because you're trying to exclusively accomodate the drooling-mouth type of secretaries. So in case you're going to reduce the shyness, please allow users to increase it again.

Thanks.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

John Topley — Thu, 06 Oct 2005 17:35:47 GMT

I'm sorry, but I can't take the name MiniBar seriously. A MiniBar is what I reach into in a hotel room when I want a Gin & Tonic!

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Stuart Ballard — Thu, 06 Oct 2005 17:44:25 GMT

On an unrelated topic, I saw this a while back and just got around to digging up the URL because I wondered if anyone involved in the Office UI group had thought about this.

http://blog.drinsama.de/erich/en/xml/2005092802-microsoft-still-doesnt-get-semantic-documents

I love a lot of what you're doing with the UI (the ribbon, dialog launchers and minibar all look like great innovations), but he has a good point. I don't *want* to type a heading, change the font, change the color, make it bold, make it italic, and increase the size, and then repeat the same five steps for every other heading I create in a document. I want to say "make a heading" and have it automatically get the right style.

Okay, I myself know how to do that, but I'm an advanced user (It's fairly laborious anyway, the style dialog is hardly intuitive or convenient). 99% of people who write documents are going to repeat the five steps.

With all the work you've done on figuring out how to get users to quickly move towards the "most important" UI elements, I'm sure you could find ways to drive them towards using the "semantic" styling operations instead of straight to the font dropdown. Or if you notice someone creating the same combined set of formatting over and over, make it easy to associate that with a style, either one of the predefined ones or a new one. As well as being good for theoretical, abstract "semanticness" (which I *do* care about but users probably don't) this would also be a huge productivity booster because it allows what was a multi-step process to become a two-click process thereafter.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Jonathan West MVP — Thu, 06 Oct 2005 17:56:01 GMT

At the moment, you are showing the minibar just with direct formatting. That's fine, but there are cases where that's not what is needed. For instance, if a document has been protected so that direct formatting is not permitted, the minibar is not going to have all that many useful commands on it!

So, I hope that the minibar will be customizable when designing a template, at the very least to the point of us being able to add buttons for applying styles, and preferably to allow any kind of control (e.g. to insert AutoText or run a macro) to be on the minibar. This will make it a whole lot easier for template designers to produce easy-to-use templates that implement a company brand image.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Rick Scott — Thu, 06 Oct 2005 18:02:30 GMT

This new MiniBar looks interesting, as did the SmartTag (on-object UI). But all 3 things are basically the same: different context menus.

The current context menu contains links to some things that are rarely used (the paragraph menu?).

A better approach to all this might be to incorporate cut/copy/paste and bold/italics/align *and* context sensitive options into the right-click menu.

Betty Joe in the office that hasn't used a computer before can easily be told that almost everything she could want will happen if she uses the right-side mouse button.

As it is, the complexity is increasing. Now there are going to be THREE context menues, all accessed differently? I'm a developer (and ergo an 'advanced user') and I'm already going to be confused about right click versus smart tag versus tooltip options versus mini bar.

What about just making a REALLY good context menu?

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

zz — Thu, 06 Oct 2005 18:03:45 GMT

Thanks Jensen for thinking about us the selection readers! This looks great.

On a side note, I probably would recommend you host this video on Channel 9. I'm not sure how resilent sunflowerhead.com maybe to the slashdot effect.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Mario Goebbels — Thu, 06 Oct 2005 18:22:31 GMT

"Okay, I myself know how to do that, but I'm an advanced user (It's fairly laborious anyway, the style dialog is hardly intuitive or convenient). 99% of people who write documents are going to repeat the five steps."

I have to chime in here for a slight comment. Of those 99% of generic users, maybe 5% will get the idea behind this, and also only if you explicitely teach them about it. The other 94% will be without a clue, no matter what you try. And if some of them use it, they'll dismiss it very soon. That's my experience I had with secretaries and alike.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Rick Scott — Thu, 06 Oct 2005 18:36:46 GMT

"I have to chime in here for a slight comment. Of those 99% of generic users, maybe 5% will get the idea behind this, and also only if you explicitely teach them about it. The other 94% will be without a clue, no matter what you try."

I disagree. If its done JUST right, it can have a great penetration, at the expense of further learning.

For instance, if the MiniBar had a button that said "Make Heading" that automatically Bolded, Centered and increased font size by 1 (or changed it to a certain font size like 14 or 18), it would be very learnable. The customization part would be a simple property page on what "make heading" means that intermediate users could play with. Basically like the H1 tag in HTML...its pre-set to look like a huge heading.

You could find 2-3 of the most common formatting options (make heading, make footnote?...whatever usabaility labs tells you are the most common things to do) and provide reasonable defaults.

Like 2-3 built-in yet customizable macros with common defaults.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Mr. Dee — Thu, 06 Oct 2005 18:41:04 GMT

Could you also have Drop Caps on the Mini Bar too? Its a very productive feature and its not in your way. I can't wait to try this out.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Templates? — Thu, 06 Oct 2005 18:46:58 GMT

It would be great to have a template selector on the minibar. As it is now, it just encourages users to manually format every heading instead of learning how to use format templates properly.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Thomas Tallyce — Thu, 06 Oct 2005 18:53:00 GMT

I would concur with the point made by Stuart Ballard above - that Word *really* needs to make Styles more usable and more obvious so that it can start to become the default mechanism for adding styling rather than the complex, hidden-away one.

It takes me about an hour or two to teach colleagues how to use styles properly, after which they never go back to using the old-fashioned font/font-size/etc method. When using styles, the quality of their work is substantially improved.

What plans do the Office12 team have for improving the styles mechanism and bringing it to the fore?

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

boxmonkey — Thu, 06 Oct 2005 19:41:31 GMT

I'm glad you are keeping selection readers in mind. I actually thought I might be the only one. Selection reading does 2 things: It keeps my place (which is good because I am frequently interrupted, AND I multitask, so I am often switching to other windows), and it's also high-contrast, and easier to read, especially if there's some kind of annoying background on a page.

A couple of otherwise cool sites have made me abandon them because they have enacted measures to prevent users from selecting text, i.e. by placing all text in a SWF file. They think this will protect their copyright material, but all it does is frustrate people.

What about Styles?

Frank — Thu, 06 Oct 2005 20:04:10 GMT

As a UI feature, the MiniBar sounds good. I just wish that you incorporated STYLES in its content.

Given a large corpus of texts, maintaining a consistent set of formatting is incredibly important. Allowing people to just embolden this or that, or change a typeface here and there detracts from the consistent style.

While plopping these random formatting elements is fine for cutsie little documents, Word still has a ways to go before I consider it a professional documentation system.

Setting up a set of styles in a template and adhering to those styles is the best way that I have been able to find to use Word in a professional manner. With the MiniBar just floating around tempting you to click on random formatting, that discipline is lost. We end up with 100 documents with 100 different styles. Then, what happens when the the company wishes to change its formatting across all documents? Out of luck I guess.

Put simply, why not put styles on the MiniBar?

30 year-old TeX is still an improvement over Word.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Thu, 06 Oct 2005 20:08:34 GMT

Is there a way to access the on-object menu with keyboard-only?

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

David Harrison — Thu, 06 Oct 2005 20:14:13 GMT

I agree with Frank as well - please put styles in the MiniBar, and consider how to improve the usability of styles. Word's deemphasis on styles means that many users spend more effort formatting documents than they need to. True, the presence of Styles in the task panes in Word 2002/2003 has helped a bit - but the styles support is still much less direct and intuitive than Ami Pro circa 1992.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

jensenh — Thu, 06 Oct 2005 20:23:14 GMT

Thanks for all the comments.

The actual content of the MiniBar is still being finalized--styles is something we've received a lot of feedback people would like to see in Word.

We've also heard that people would like to customize it to put their own commands on it, and that's something we're considering as well, although it won't be in beta 1.

On "only 5% will ever discover it." Not really what we've seen in the lab so far, although we have seen people who have exclusively used the right-click version.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

sgim — Thu, 06 Oct 2005 21:02:16 GMT

I think the MiniBar is going to be a wonderful addition for tablet pc users like myself. Many formatting abilities will be close to the pen tip so we won't have to travel the screen for these features. I'm also a selection reader, especially in tablet mode, so let's hope the MiniBar is somewhat out of the way.

You can find me here:
http://inkling-impression.blogspot.com

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Weevil — Thu, 06 Oct 2005 23:53:10 GMT

Glad to hear that customisation is being ‘considered’. Given the freedom we currently have to tweak toolbars, menus, etc, I think it would be *extremely* frustrating to be locked into the factory settings.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

PatriotB — Thu, 06 Oct 2005 23:56:36 GMT

Here I thought I was strange for selecting text as I read -- now I find out its a common practice and that there's tons of other "selection readers" out there.

I agree with boxmonkey -- web pages where you can't select text irritate me to no end. Also bad are those pages where you select but IE messes up the selection (e.g. selects the entire page).

re: Minibars and covering my text

orcmid — Fri, 07 Oct 2005 00:11:05 GMT

The minibar looks great, and I agree with sqim about the value on a Tablet PC.

And the new little widgies that stick to my screen in Office 2003 make me crazy. They won't go away, and I can't see the cursor underneath where I'm trying to work. The one that gags me the most is the clipboard paste one. Also, the blinkety-blink "Use Ctrl+click to follow a hyperlink" (in FrontPage 2003) won't let me put the cursor in the URL that I want to edit. I have to sneak in from the edge using the arrow keys. Gahh.

How do I turn that stuff off? I don't need any of it.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

ooh — Fri, 07 Oct 2005 00:50:15 GMT

Love the aqua-like interface! Did you guys invent that too?

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Rob — Fri, 07 Oct 2005 01:01:05 GMT

I don't know why you guys insist on putting so much stuff right in the face of your users. Why not design Office to get out of the way and let them work? The "smart" tags in Word annoy me to no end, especially the little auto-correct blue underline/smart tag that you CAN'T TURN OFF. The MiniBar sounds like it will be another huge annoyance, something like the Paper Clip that will pop up exactly when I don't want it.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Step — Fri, 07 Oct 2005 02:13:38 GMT

Looks good from the video. I'll add my voice asking for much better styles usability - I'm sure you're working on it.

I also want to second orcmid (and others), those "smart tags" are pretty much horrible. They seem like a good idea, and I want them to work, but most of the time they just seem to always be in the way, and yet be difficult to hit (too small, perhaps? Fitt's Law, and all). I hope that isn't the case for the MiniBar. It does sound like you've had better results in the labs.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

jensenh — Fri, 07 Oct 2005 02:27:41 GMT

The anti-smart tags comments are not unexpected. One could make the argument (as Step did) that they're not small enough not to be annoying and not big enough that they're easy to hit.

I think you'll find the MiniBar to be a different kind of UI. Maybe you'll like it, maybe you'll turn it off, but it should be evaluated on its own merits once you have a build to play with it.

It was designed and developed by people with a strong distrust of "automatic" UI, so the values you have about wanting it to be out of the way and not annoying and easy to hit when you want it are all the goals we have in mind.

We continue to tweak its behavior based on what we learn in the lab and anecdotally through our feedback channels. There are a large number of different settings we can tweak to try to get its "organic" behavior to feel right.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

jensenh — Fri, 07 Oct 2005 02:29:34 GMT

On styles usability in Word, I have it on good authority that one of my colleagues in Word is going to be starting a blog and writing on this exact subject soon...

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

David Candy — Fri, 07 Oct 2005 03:51:29 GMT

I'll make several comments.

1. In ver 6 and 7 the reason why commands were unavailable was explained in the status bar when selected. EG You can't use a table command because no table is selected when one has not correctly selected something in a table. In 8 this was moved to the Shift + F1 help. This was a very bad idea. PS Tog, the Mac UI designer, agrees with me.

2. Since right clicking came in (in ver 6 I think - before it was in windows itself) I have found I don't really use toolbars much. As I write this I look at IE's toolbar - Refresh is the only button I ever use. As I only use Open in New Window for all links I don't use Back/Forward. Again in IE the only UI helper minibar thingy I use is to make pictures the correct size.

3. The most annoying thing about office is doing logos and the like and not being able to save drawings as wmf or emf.

4. I can't use current versions of office. 2000 is the last version I can use. It's so helpful I can't use it. I have 95/97/2000 (and 5 for Dos) installed. The final straw was the office clipboard toolbar and turning it off three times to trigger something. I realised then the program cannot be predicted and thus can't be trusted.

5. Word is a fine DTP program. However one needs a rigerous enforcement of styles to do top level output (filling space etc). Like with html the programs (all programs) conspire to force direct formatting.

6. Word seems to be unfriendly to some groups. For instance Harvard citers gets zip, nothing, not even a mention while fottnoters and endnoters get 30 million features. Likewise the inbuilt styles are not only ugly but don't support style guides like Australian Govt Style Guide (and I'm sure many others). In two out of three higher education facility I've attended Harvard/Aus Govt was required and Chicargo in the other.

Setting Defaults

Headtoadie — Fri, 07 Oct 2005 04:16:57 GMT

Lots of good discussions here on Styles. I hope that in the O12 that it is more intuitive to set defaults for styles. As it is now you have to create a book.xlt or Normal.dot with you default styles in order to have them in all new workbooks/documents.

I would guess that less than 1 in 1000 users now understand how to accomplish this.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Sebhelyesfarku — Fri, 07 Oct 2005 13:46:48 GMT

New features are fine but the interface must be so simple that even Jessica Simpson with her brain of a moth can understand and use it.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Helen — Fri, 07 Oct 2005 17:36:34 GMT

All of the new features that you've described until now are geared towards mouse users. Please please tell us more about how the new version will work from a keyboard user's point of view.

I use the keyboard for 95% of what I do in Word. I use the keyboard for formatting and applying styles (Ctrl + Shift + F to change font, Ctrl + Shift + S to apply a style), and for navigating menus.

The only things that I do regularly, and still use the mouse for, are:
* correcting spelling errors (because the right-click menu is by far the easiest way to access suggested corrections, and there are no access keys for the suggestions);
* selection and navigation.

The last one will probably always remain mouse-driven, because that's what the mouse is good for. But I would love to see better keyboard access to the former.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Bronwyn — Fri, 07 Oct 2005 19:33:02 GMT

Tally up my votes for semantics not formatting, styles in the minibar, and a customizable minibar!

If I'm writing a document that's more than one page, I start by figuring out what semantic styles I need, and then creating them. I got the habit from handcoding XHTML + CSS.

But Word still shoots itself in the kneecaps even with all that care and forethought. See <a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/arndis/7514.html">Structure and Presentation</a>.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Bronwyn — Fri, 07 Oct 2005 19:36:07 GMT

Alright, here's the link again for my Structure and Presentation post:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/arndis/7514.html

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Fox Cutter — Fri, 07 Oct 2005 21:30:50 GMT

The more I see of Office 12 the pleased I am with what you have done. Every UI change I've seen has made sense. Watching the videos in action I just get it. You guys have done a lot of good things here.

I'm actually planing to get this version of Office (the last one I got was 97 :). Heck I didn't even get the version of office I worked on, so this says a lot about obvious of an improvement this is.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Mary Branscombe — Fri, 07 Oct 2005 21:49:15 GMT

I wanted to drop in a vote for Smart Tags: I'm a big fan because of having the most useful options within easy mouse reach and I'm hoping the MiniBar will be more of the same. Are you using the same kind of research for what to put on the MiniBar as you did for picking what goes on the tabs (if 80% of common clicks are on the first tab will you aim for 80% of clicks when text is selected on the Floatie?)

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Dennis van der Stelt — Mon, 10 Oct 2005 10:57:32 GMT

Question...

In the video, when the line is selected, the whitespace after the second word is also selected. Why is this?

Sometimes when a bullited list is on the next line, you press [delete] or something and the bullited list is removed from its first item. It kind of sucks having this.

An example: I get an email from some site that I have registered there. One year later, I open the email and double-click and copy the password from it, because I had forgotten it, or it's something like hdKI6s@kj. But the whitespace behind it (which is actually not even there, but a linebreak is) gets selected as well, and is copy-n-pasted into the password field. You get the idea what the response of the website will be. :)

As I know this won't be changed because I requested it, I just want to know why this is how it is? Why is the last whitespace-character also selected, even if it's not even a regular space!

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Thomas Tallyce — Mon, 10 Oct 2005 12:01:51 GMT

> On styles usability in Word, I have it on good authority that one of my colleagues in Word is going to be starting a blog and writing on this exact subject soon...

Excellent. Please do post the URL in a new posting when this happens.

One of the problems with the styles implementation in OfficeXP and earlier is that is just not very discoverable. By default, the styles box in the top-left has the text "Normal" in it. What does that mean to a general (dare I say "normal"!) user? Furthermore, the term normal clashes with the "normal" template.

Suppose this was called Normal Paragraph Text or something like that, it would at least give users some idea of what that box is for. Even better would be some sort of associated text label next to it, called "Headings and styles" or something. I realise the toolbars/ribbon tries to avoid textual labels but I can't see how else you can do this with such a control, as it's simply not obvious otherwise to normal users.

Perhaps instead there will be a "styles" bit of the ribbon. Furthermore, there could be a button like "use headings/styles mode" on the nasty formatting bar.

"Styles" itself is not a particularly good name. "Headings/styles" is arguably better, because I suspect most users of styles will visualise most of their use of this as changing headings and the main paragraph text only. While of course one can set all manner of page elements (footer, etc) to using styles, headings and the main paragraph text are what most people are likely to use, not least as these are set in the default pull-down box. So including the word "headings" in the title would make this further discoverable.

Anyway, just some ideas to throw in for consideration. I realise they're not well-developed, but that's not my job :)

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Alexander Lezos — Tue, 11 Oct 2005 08:50:28 GMT

The MiniBar sounds and looks very handy. But i don't see a "styles drop down" in there. For people who use styles to write their documents the minibar will be useless without it. :-(

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Klaus Linke — Wed, 12 Oct 2005 02:12:40 GMT

Talking more about modes:

-- Setting up a document (styles definitions, page and section setup, headers and footers, ...) and actual writing could be two entirely different modes. One thing I'd hope for is that I can customize Word along those lines.

-- Styles and manual formatting should be two entirely separate modes of working with Word.

A document completely formatted in styles is great and easy to maintain/repurpose. A document that is completely manually formatted could be great too, if the formatting could be 100% consistent (of which there is hardly any chance). But a mixture of manual formatting and styles is a nightmare, and it also is the standard today for most Word documents.

Instead of some last-minute fixes like adding a styles dropdown, or promote/demote buttons, to the MiniBar, there should be a mode to completely ban all manual formatting (font, size, alignment...) from the interface. Or at least, again, I'd hope to be able to customize Word that way. A mixture of styles and manual formatting, which is what the last versions of Word encouraged, is really not what we want and need.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

epoxymoose — Fri, 14 Oct 2005 19:58:57 GMT

The Office 12 UI looks fairly promising to me. I'm looking forward to trying it out with my own two hands.

There's one thing I'd like to see specifically addressed, and I hope an insider can chime in with some info. I'm a keyboard user; I go for long periods of time without using the mouse. In many applications, things that pop up automatically and respond to mouse cursor position never go away if the mouse happens to be too close to them. I'm concerned that the MiniBar will stay in place if it happens to appear underneath my (unused) mouse cursor. One thing that really steams my pork buns is having to stop what I'm doing to move the mouse cursor so some ill-informed popup goes away.

I'd also like to see a way to pop up and navigate the MiniBar from the keyboard, but that's secondary.

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Lachlan Hunt — Sat, 15 Oct 2005 13:48:16 GMT

Yikes! That looks like a huge step backwards for MS Word. Formatting options is the last thing I wanted to see made more accessible wherever I click.

I was impressed by Office XPs Styles and Formatting task pane, that allowed me to specify semantic conceps, be they headings, paragraphs, lists, code samples, emphasis, or whatever and have all the formatting be one click away for whatever I needed.

I thought, at last, Word if finally starting to move away from the presentation-based authoring environment that plagues most WYSIWYG editors into a more semantic and usable app; but now that your making all those essentially useless and bloated presentational buttons (most of which I remove from the toolbar immediately these days), it's a huge step backwards.

Please, let the user focus on the content, the meaning of the content and the structure of the content! Let the templates/style sheets worry about how it all looks!

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Joshua Seigler — Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:29:15 GMT

Semantic document structure. Semantic document structure. Semantic document structure.

Office's UI guides the way its users think. If you can construct an interface that makes semantic markup the "default" choice, and buries the formatting or moves it somewhere less convenient, you can nudge users towards a more effective document structure - a structure that is ultimately less frustrating.

Lachlan - well put!

re: Saddle Up to the MiniBar

Richard — Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:52:51 GMT

Post another vote for style and customisability.

It would be good to see some of these different mechanisms merged (or at least rationalised).

E.g. I can access the right cliock menu with the context menu key (on most post-Win95 keyboards) and the smart tag via shift-alt-F10. Why not offer all the context together?

E.g. In Word 2003, using change markup I loose access to the restart numbering if on a numbered paragraph; just get the options about accept/reject change. Would be much better to get the options merged, so I see the "number paragraph" and "marked change" options together.

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