New Fonts For Documents

re: New Fonts For Documents

tzagotta — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 18:11:24 GMT

1. Is the default font changing from Times New Roman to one of these?

2. Is it just a coincidence that all these font names start with 'C'?

re: New Fonts For Documents

Andreas Lann — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 18:16:37 GMT

But is Times new roman still going to be the default font?

re: New Fonts For Documents

Carr — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 18:36:48 GMT

Ban Comic Sans! http://bancomicsans.com/

re: New Fonts For Documents

jojjo — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 19:23:05 GMT

Giving all the fonts such similar names seems like bad usability design to me. "What font have you used?" "You know, the one... that starts with a C... Can-, Com-, Cal-something."

Wasn't O12 supposed to be the new kid in town regarding usability?

But which zero? (from: New Fonts For Documents)

ChrisC — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 19:23:55 GMT

Cool: Consolas ~= Console.
That I can remember, thanks!

Two questions:
1) features include... slashed, dotted and normal zeros
Q: Which of these zeros is the default?

2) The look of text can be tuned to personal taste by varying the number of bars and waves.
Q: And this means what? Is there an additional setting so I can have zeroes displayed as slashed and my 'mainframe background' cube-mate can have them displayed as dotted?

(I didn't notice anything relevant in the blog you referenced - if there is, just say where)

re: New Fonts For Documents

Walter Lounsbery — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 19:25:26 GMT

Having published a few newsletters, I'm looking forward to using these new fonts. They are quite friendly.

At the same time, the font descriptions remind me of some wine reviews..."it has an open, friendly design with just a hint of broccoli. The T's are assertive, while the I's are impetuous. All in all, the paragraph ends cleanly and leaves a fruity, apricot feeling."

But I will never, ever try the Merlot font! No, No, No!!!

re: New Fonts For Documents

Sherrod Segraves — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 19:25:28 GMT

The Cambria and Constantia samples scream for ffi ligatures. I hope Office 12 will finally have automatic support for ligatures.

I love the lowercase (old style) numerals in the samples. I also hope Office 12 makes lowercase numerals easy to use.

Consolas is very readable for a monospace font, but there really isn't much point for using monospace with programming. Garamond is attractive, reasonably compact, and its small x-height makes camel case code easy to read.

Some of the newer fonts that Microsoft releases (like Verdana and Calibri) look very open and inviting at first glance. But I find the extra spacing between letters makes them tiring for more than a paragraph or so. Is it just me?

re: New Fonts For Documents

anon — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 19:25:34 GMT

Since fonts are not embedded within the documents, is it the same bogus fallback scenario all non-Office 2006 users will have to deal with? The bogus implementation is that older versions of Office don't warn that they are not able to properly render the document, but that does not stop the UI from showing the font names although random (some people would say similar, but I don't buy it) fonts are used in place.

Aren't fonts inherently an operating system thing? What has that anything to do with Office?

re: New Fonts For Documents

Dan McCarty — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 19:32:12 GMT

BTW, does anyone know how to pronounce "Segoe"? Is the e on the end silent?

Calibri, Cambria, Candara, Consolas, Constantina and Corbel. All these new fonts start with either Co* or Ca*. That's going to be real fun for people who use Ctrl+Shift+F to type the name of the font they want. Also, with the exception of Consolas, in my experience most users won't be able to remember which font looks like what because the names are too indistinct.

Walter: that was hilarious!

re: New Fonts For Documents

orcmid — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 19:46:06 GMT

OK, I wondered about this before when I read about Candara, and I'll ask it here. What makes Candara and any other font a "humanist font?"

Can people who object to being associated with humanists find a fundamentalist font in the O12 support? Will there be a mono-fundamentalist regime, or is there multi-fundamentalist support?

Kidding aside, I really do want to understand the use of the term applied to fonts.

re: New Fonts For Documents

barrkel — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:15:05 GMT

I still see no evidence of ligatures.

Historically, documents produced by WinWord are obvious by their ugliness compared to TeX output, due to lack of fi / ffi etc. ligatures.

As a complete non-expert looking in, it would seem that the ligature problem could be solved in a similar way to the way the Arabic combining system works.

re: New Fonts For Documents

Colin Nicholls — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:29:21 GMT

>> there really isn't much point for using monospace with programming.<<

I, and many of my programmer peers, would beg to differ with you.

I use Bitstream Vera Sans Mono for programming. It rocks. Consolas seems very similar, worth a look.

re: New Fonts For Documents

Orion Adrian — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:44:21 GMT

I've been using Consolas for several months now in Visual Studio and I love it. It's a great font for all your monospace needs.

I have to concur with the thing about them all starting with C. I know the logic was that would put them all in the same place in the selection screen, but I feel it hurts memory.

And finally, did you write the comments on each one. They sound like something that would come from the font authors or some other expert on fonts. I don't know if you are or not; just curious.

re: New Fonts For Documents

jensenh — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 21:51:32 GMT

Yes, one of these will be the new default font. We're still in the process of determining which one.

re: New Fonts For Documents

Chris Nahr — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 21:52:22 GMT

Consolas? Bah, Lucida Console is still prettier... :p

Just kidding, the new fonts do look good. I'm just a little confused... do we really desperately need six new fonts? It's not like Windows and especially Office didn't already have a bunch, and it's not as if Microsoft was the only font foundry.

Meanwhile, the Font selection list in our word processors grow longer and less usable with every new Windows font. How about setting some of these font designers to work on a built-in font manager instead, so that we can hide the fonts we don't want?

(Outright uninstalling a font is tricky because something might break, and an update installation or MSI repair might re-install the font...)

barrkel: While the TeX is perpetually stuck in 1970, smart people have invented Unicode which defines code points for ligatures. They're not shown in such small samples, but most Unicode fonts have fi and fl, and "expert" fonts have a full set. You need a typesetting application like Adobe InDesign to use them automatically, or you can enter them manually via Character Map in Word.

re: New Fonts For Documents

jensenh — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 21:53:03 GMT

Segoe is pronounced SEE-go as I understand it. Silent e at the end, emphasis on the first syllable.

I'm known to incorrectly pronounce it with the emphasis on the second syllable...

re: New Fonts For Documents

jensenh — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 21:57:15 GMT

Orion:

Nah, I didn't write the font descriptions. As I mentioned in the article, they're courtesy of the Advanced Reading Technology team, which has a blog here: http://blogs.msdn.com/fontblog/

re: New Fonts For Documents

jensenh — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 22:15:39 GMT

jojo:

I'm not sure how they all ended up with all 'C' names. I agree it could be confusing.

Maybe the font guys can stop by and explain the story of how they all ended up with 'C' names...

re: New Fonts For Documents

Brian — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 22:19:14 GMT

I just tried Consolas in VS2005. I'll never do that again. It appears that a quarter of the letters (M, w, v--pretty much any with diagonal lines) are ghosted, and the rest bold, both on a LCD and CRT at point sizes 8 and 9. I'll stick with Courier New or Lucinda, thanks. Comfortably Readable? Absolutely not. :( I was looking forward to it, too.

re: New Fonts For Documents

jensenh — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 22:22:14 GMT

anon (if that is your real name):

Office has always installed a number of fonts; this is not really something new.

In this case, the fonts were designed to complement the new facilities in Office 12 to create great looking documents, so they're really part of the user experience. (You'll see how this is so as I introduce a number of other features in this area.)

Plus, the default font in Word/Excel/PowerPoint will be updated to be one of these...

re: New Fonts For Documents

jensenh — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 22:23:19 GMT

Brian:

Do you have ClearType on or off? Consolas is designed to be used if you use ClearType.

re: New Fonts For Documents

Si — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 23:12:04 GMT

>I'll never do that again.

Before you give up, please turn on ClearType, make sure your LCD panel is running at its native resolution and tune your ClearType settings... http://www.microsoft.com/typography/ClearTypePowerToy.mspx

Cheers, Si

re: New Fonts For Documents

Boris Yankov — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 00:07:42 GMT

I tried Consolas in Delphi, ClearType on.
It rocks!
Brian, I have no idea why you tested it at 8 and 9 sizes. It seems the font is smaller than my previous one. You should try 11.

In fact I am using it at 13 right now. It fits 100 characters per line at my 1792x1344 display and looks cool.

Btw Janses, I think it was you that said Segoe UI will be allowed to be available to older Windows version? Can you elaborate on this?

re: New Fonts For Documents

anon — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 00:08:22 GMT

"Office has always installed a number of fonts; this is not really something new. "

You've missed the entire point. There are three bugs (or three end user frustrations depending on how you call these) :
- the publisher creates a document, shares it, and receives feedback from recipient that the document looks like crap, i.e. the publisher used special fonts that were part of his own install (just like those new 2006 fonts you refer to).
- older versions of Word don't even warn when opening a document that they won't render the text with the proper font anytime the font is not there.
- the Word UI, for instance, puts the font in the UI controls related to the font even though the text is not rendered with that font. This is not only misleading, it does not make sense at all.

And again, fonts are an operating system thing, not an application thing. I'd expect the new fonts to be part of a service pack, not an application, no matter how many users you'll have by 2008. And don't forget, Office 2006 begins with a 0-user install base the day it ships.

Sorry for being a bit technical. I guess that's not the point of your post. But this shocked me.

re: New Fonts For Documents

Si — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 00:12:44 GMT

>Btw Janses, I think it was you that said Segoe UI will be allowed to be available to older Windows version? Can you elaborate on this?

The Windows MSX team are working on a plan. There are various complexities that still need to be thought through.

re: New Fonts For Documents

tzagotta — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 00:13:58 GMT

anon, If MS Office ships with these fonts, eventually they'll be on everyone's machine, including XP users, as folks upgrade to O12.

I don't think it has been said yet, but I'll bet the plan is also to ship these (and other) new fonts with Vista.

So, really both angles are covered - the new fonts are deployed with both the OS and with Vista. But your point is well-taken, that non-Vista, non-O12 users should also have access to these fonts so they can view other folks' documents.

re: New Fonts For Documents

Mo — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 02:06:58 GMT

Jensen - Thanks for providing so much insight. I've often wondered what purpose certain fonts are meant to serve. I poked around the font blog you referenced, but I haven't found a resource online (or in the word help) that gives descriptions for all existing fonts. Do you know if one exists?

Thanks!

Mo

re: New Fonts For Documents

Ti — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 02:13:27 GMT

May be people here don't realize they can include fonts with the documents???

re: New Fonts For Documents

Anon2 — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 02:18:01 GMT

Is cleartype requried for these new fonts? I don't use it because I find it makes things harder to see, and the edges are blurry (and I'm not using a CRT).

re: New Fonts For Documents

Si — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 02:45:15 GMT

>What makes Candara and any other font a "humanist font?"

This wiki http://typophile.com/wiki/Sans%20Serif provides a good overview of the different sans-serif styles. Basically you have three styles – the industrial (AKA grotesques), the geometric, and the humanist style. "Humanist sans typefaces more directly mimic the forms and structures of calligraphy, and generally have somewhat eccentric, more classical shapes. Humanist sans faces have more modulated strokes, and their italics are frequently more directly based on cursive writing."

re: New Fonts For Documents

Si — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 02:49:57 GMT

>but I haven't found a resource online (or in the word help) that gives descriptions for all existing fonts.

Many of the fonts we ship include embedded descriptions - use this tool to get at them easily. http://www.microsoft.com/typography/TrueTypeProperty21.mspx

re: New Fonts For Documents

Si — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 03:00:03 GMT

>Is cleartype requried for these new fonts?

While no font "requires" ClearType these fonts were designed to take advantage of it. Under regular antialiasing or bi-level aliased rendering the fonts don't look as good. See this post for side-by-sides... http://www.microsoft.com/typography/links/news.aspx?NID=5153

>I don't use it because I find it makes things harder to see, and the edges are blurry

The most important things to do here are make sure the LCD panel is set to its native resolution, and then run the tuner...
http://www.microsoft.com/typography/ClearTypePowerToy.mspx

re: New Fonts For Documents

Malcolm — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 05:13:36 GMT

> While no font "requires" ClearType these fonts were designed to take advantage of it. Under regular antialiasing or bi-level aliased rendering the fonts don't look as good.

So what about us dinosaurs still using CRTs? Are we stuck with ugly looking fonts?

re: New Fonts For Documents

Si — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 09:53:06 GMT

>So what about us dinosaurs still using CRTs? Are we stuck with ugly looking fonts?

The ClearType tuner may help somewhat.

re: New Fonts For Documents

professional web design — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 12:11:40 GMT

what's with the c?

re: New Fonts For Documents

Dave Solimini — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 18:11:09 GMT

as a fontaholic (1124 and counting), i have to say i like these fonts. they feel open, which is important when considering the UI goals of Windows Vista... but i have to echo the sentiment that having them all start with C is a problem for remembering which is being used.

ds

re: New Fonts For Documents

Brian — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 22:58:40 GMT

Oddly, I knew about ClearType, but for some reason thought it was on by default in XP--I even looked in my control panel and display settings for ClearType settings. I never found them. Once I downloaded the powertoy and tuned it, it (8pt Consolas) looks great on BOTH the CRT (21" 1600x1200) and the LCD (19" 1280x1024).

In response to Boris: I have no idea where you got an LCD monitor that could display 1792x1344, but let me assure you that if your max resolution is 1280x1024, 13pt type is NOT an option.

Now that it's working properly I'm very happy to be using it... thinner monotype is always a blessing.

re: New Fonts For Documents

Mario Goebbels — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 23:25:10 GMT

What do you mean by "multiple numeral sets" on Calibri? I've been complaining because the old style lining numerals were removed from the newer version in Office. Now this multiple sets thing makes me think they're still in the font somewhere. If that's the case, how can I make Office use one of the others sets than the default?

re: New Fonts For Documents

Dan McCarty — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 23:54:45 GMT

Si, re: http://www.microsoft.com/typography/links/news.aspx?NID=5153

I'm glad you posted a screenshot of Candara/Calibri without ClearType. Take a look at the em's in the grayscale sample. Why do they all have so much trailing space after them? It's very distracting. (And it's even worse than plain b/w.)

We use Win2K here at work, so ClearType-tuned fonts leave something to be desired at the moment.

re: New Fonts For Documents

Si — Fri, 09 Dec 2005 17:59:01 GMT

>Take a look at the em's in the grayscale sample.

The fontblog blog uses IE's embedded fonts feature to deliver content displayed using the fonts mentioned – these are rendered depending on the user settings. The fonts being used are pre-release versions, and I know that efforts are underway to improve the rendering quality under grayscale.

re: New Fonts For Documents

Peter — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 07:16:06 GMT

>The Greek and Cyrillic has been designed under close supervision of an international team of experts

Nice to hear this. Cyrillic letters (especially small "be") looked terrible in Times New Roman; I hope, new fonts will improve the situation.

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