Community and Developers

re: Community and Developers

denny — Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:02:00 GMT

" how do you find all the answers from various resources? " a lot of Google ...
PS: msdn search is often no help, serching the KB is better than searching MSDN for some stuff.

I use GDN and CodeProject a *LOT* to find stuff.
I like the MSDN TV and .Net SHow -- watch them almost as soon as they show up.

seems like I have found that there are folks who find a .Net or a VS.NEt problem who will not go to MS PSS and report it. perhaps a "Report the bugs" site might be of use??

there have been a few times where I had other make these comments:

1) microsoft is not responding to my bug.
2) submiting the problem is to hard.
3) I submited the problem and got no follow up last time so I'm not going to waste my time now.

so I would say that we have a start on GDN and here of a trend for coders like me to get one step "closer" to interacting with MS folks about problems.... If we can in some form take that a step further??

for example: I posted on GDN about writing a VS.NET addin to help with debuging Win32 Services from VS. An MS staffer liked what I did and asked me if I was doing a Workspace.
I did and have not heard back from anyone...
I posted some IMHO good questions related to addin development... I still don't have any answers....
if posts like that got read and MS could post good MSDN / KB bits and link them to the place they were asked like GDN then other folks would find them faster.

well Just an idea or two....

re: Community and Developers

Jan Tielens — Fri, 26 Dec 2003 22:26:00 GMT

Hi Jeremy

I'm quite active in the .NET community (MSDN Belux site (www.msdn.be), my blog, Belgian .NET UG (www.benug.be), MSDN Newsgroups, ...), it's great that you are asking the question, because in my opinion some things can be organized a little bit better.

When you have a question, the first thing that you do is search MSDN and/or use Google. Google is great because it indexes newsgroups too, MSDN doesn't, plus Google indexes local Microsoft sites with sometimes quite intresting articles (e.g. www.microsoft.com/belux/nl/msdn/community/articles.mspx). So how can Microsoft make improvements for searching: add (MS)newsgroups searching and add local MS content indexing. Ofcourse there are other great resources like weblogs, 3rd party sites, ... but these do not belong in the MSDN search I think.

If you haven't found an answer to your question yet, you'll probably want to post your question somewhere. My biggest concern is that there are so many places to do this: MSDN Newsgroups, GotDotNet Forums, ASP.NET Forums, WindowsForms.NET Forums, ... So the question becomes: where to post my stuff? Additionally some forums are overlapping: e.g. webservices belong to the ASP.NET Forums, but also to the WindowsForms.NET Forums. In my opinion the ideal world would be one gigantic system (e.g. MSDN Newsgroups), other sites could expose forums that are parts of these newsgroups. For example if you would post a question in the ASP.NET Forums, it would automatically be available on the MSDN Newsgroups and GotDotNet Forums. This would have 2 advantages: 1) higher chance that someone answers the question 2) people who answer questions don't have to monitor 5 different places.

Another part of the community in which MS has a role are the articles, webcasts, shows, ... MSDN has plenty of good articles, so I don't see a problem there. Webcasts are a great way to deliver information, I love them! My only request is to make them available offline. Recently MS switched from Interwise software to Livemeeting, so at this point the only possibility is to watch the webcasts online. The ideal world would be that the webcasts would be available to download, not only to desktop pc's, but also to mobile devices (see my post weblogs.asp.net/jan/archive/2003/11/07/36354.aspx). Shows like MSDN TV, the .NET Show and .NET Rocks are great too, although it would be nice to see a higher frequency!

So these are my thoughts about the Microsoft Community. Thanks for asking this question and I hope you'll be able to make this community even greater!

Jan

re: Community and Developers

Phil Weber — Sat, 27 Dec 2003 07:53:00 GMT

Hi, Jeremy: If the answer exists on the 'net, I can find it in 10 minutes or less using Google. :-)

re: Community and Developers

Shannon J Hager — Sat, 27 Dec 2003 09:06:00 GMT

First off, if MS really wanted to help, they would use Google for searching the MSDN site. Seriously.
As far as the commnuity section, I would like to see something like codejack/artifact (www.codejack.com), or CodeLib, but have it more free/web-based. Aaron Bertrand's ASP site was/is an outstanding example of a great code library, but it wasn't a community, so to speak. Something like that, a real code library or code knowledge base would be immensely helpful. Newsgroups and forums rarely help me as much as a google search does, even though the google result that helps me may point to a forum post at a site I am a member of. Newsgroups have too much noise, trolling, and attacks for me to even bother posting.
But the stars do shine through and are recognized, the MVP program is a definite plus.

re: Community and Developers

denny — Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:08:00 GMT

also the local / regional MS stuff is very good. I am working on going to the local stuff as often as I can. a small'ish presentation with lots of time for the audience to ask questions is a good way to help us all meet and share. Russ just moved from north east to gulf states, he is a good example, we spent an afternoon at a theater in Largo FL and it was like a SIG meeting in many ways....

I may not have the time or the cash for a "PDC" but I can find the time to go to a 3-6 hour session acros town. and the cost is almost none.

I know this would be hard... but just as an idea:

take the PDC / big events and have them at say 3-4 sites at the same time, hook the up via satalite to share some of the presentationts and keynotes. then the local and regional MS teams can stay with the loacl attendees. more developers can go and have less travel time and costs. each location could have sessions presented by the local MS teams -- same sessions at each site done localy.

some costs would be high, but I bet it would work out in the end, a larger event by at least 3-4 times.... but each location having a more "Home town" feel.

just another idea...

re: Community and Developers

Simon Stewart — Sat, 27 Dec 2003 15:11:00 GMT

"What is the ultimate community experience for developers"
*peer-to-peer. Where the aim is to share information without pushing product!
Preferrably some kind of regular meeting.

Some of the things I would like to see / am trying to include in our user group:
CD of .NET shows, MSDN TV, etc ... (download time is a deterrant)
increase awareness of PSS and the importance of *actually* logging bugs
increase awareness of local user groups to the MS Partners locally.

"how do you find all the answers from various resources? "
Google / Codeproject.
Quite often, searching leads to blogs. Especially over the past few months.
I use MSDN more for a API/usage reference, but look forward to the next version where blogs/developer posts will be included (from what I saw at PDC)

"How do you research and store that information for a later date?"
Normally re-search for it using Google or check offline newsgroups/list server posts.

Great topic to start off your blog, btw Jeremy.

re: Community and Developers

Paul Laudeman — Sat, 27 Dec 2003 16:06:00 GMT

From my perspective, the biggest challenge is finding the information that is out there (like others have mentioned). I always turn to Google first, usually by using it to search the newsgroups first like so:

"my query" group:microsoft.public.dotnet.*

or by using the Google search engine and taking a look at what the Microsoft sites have to offer first:

"my query" site:microsoft.com (or site:msdn.microsoft.com, etc.)

and then doing a more generalized web search if none of those fail to produce any relevant hits.

Beyond that, I'll check the other developer groups such as DevelopMentor (discuss.develop.com) and the ASP.NET and Windows Forms.NET forums.

The biggest challenge, as you might be getting a sense of, is the sheer number of sites that I have to search and browse to find what I'm looking for. If you could somehow build a single meta-search entry point into all of your resources (with the effectiveness of Google), that'd be a great start. Also, the addition of RSS feeds to almost all of the Microsoft sites has been a *great* addition.

Additionally, it would certainly help to have some sort of way to check Microsoft's internal bug reporting system to see if a bug has been reported before and, if so, what the fix was. You can do this by searching the KB articles, but this only reports on bugs that have fixes, workarounds, or noted to be fixed in a future release. It would also be helpful to see that bugs have at least been logged into your systems to be looked at, if nothing else. Easier bug reporting would also need to be implemented.

Also, and finally, in conversations that I have seen in the newsgroups and forums, I have noticed that there are occasions where a Microsoft employee will respond to a request for help, but not really be around to follow it through to the end to make sure the problem was resolved.

Lastly, nomiate more MVP's with specific coverage areas (e.g. ASP.NET, Winforms, etc.) to help you out in all the ways suggested above!

re: Community and Developers

Ken Cox [MVP - ASP.NET] — Sun, 28 Dec 2003 01:45:00 GMT

Hi Jeremy,

>how do you find all the answers from various resources?

A Google search (web and newsgroup) is almost certain to turn up a lead. Microsoft's search has improved, but it has a long way to go.

It would be nice if Microsoft provided a dedicated search page that focuses exclusively on its own newsgroups. These are an incredible resource for past answers. Why go out to Google for that?

>How do you research and store that information for a later date?

For newsgroup messages, I have a "NetAnswers" folder in Outlook Express where I copy any message that strikes me as valuable. I can do a very quick search there.

I also keep a Web application on my server that contains the working examples that I've posted or plucked. Because I have a poor memory for syntax, it helps to be able to pull them out.

>I hope to hear from you about what you like and dislike about community and what you would like to see more of the community.

For me, MS should boost resources in peer-to-peer newsgroups because, unlike bugs, most specific issues can't be handled by an article on a static Web site. By posting troublesome code in a newsgroup, you get hundreds of extra eyes to catch that silly error you lost a morning on. In fact, many questions in the newsgroups come from people who are bumping against code in tutorials or books.

I think MS could do more to make sure code in published articles is ported to VB. It seems like very advanced developers are more comfortable in C#, so that's the language of their samples. Trouble is, the people who need to learn their techniques are probably less advanced in C# and would find it easier to follow code in VB.

I'd like to see NNTP protocols and Outlook Express support a way to alert posters that someone has replied. I know this is done in www.asp.net forums over HTTP. No idea whether it is feasible in newsgroups.

It annoys me when viruses, porn, spam and advertisements invade the newsgroups because, unlike ASP.NET forums, there's no moderation. Removing the litter quickly - especially on weekends - is important to maintaining a healthy, cooperative, non-commercial atmosphere in the newsgroup community.

Thanks for listening Jeremy, and keep up the good work!

Community Profiles

Jeremy Bostron's Blog — Tue, 30 Dec 2003 03:40:00 GMT

re: Community and Developers

Homeless — Sun, 29 Feb 2004 11:42:00 GMT

why are asp.net forums not convenient to ya as a community?..

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