Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

A Geek — Tue, 12 Sep 2006 17:32:57 GMT

The different between a geek and a nerd: A geek is fascinated that he can survive a day speaking his language without embarrassing himself. A nerd is fascinated by his language and its roots.

I'm a geek.

Kernel Mustard » Blog Archive » Raymond explains the setup of set up

Kernel Mustard » Blog Archive » Raymond explains the setup of set up — Tue, 12 Sep 2006 18:18:40 GMT

PingBack from http://kernelmustard.com/2006/09/12/raymond-explains-the-setup-of-set-up/

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

Mark Steward — Tue, 12 Sep 2006 18:23:18 GMT

Other way round, surely? Nerds are the usually considered to be uninterested in social interaction, while most people are geeks about their own subjects. (Then again, there's evidence that this is part of an isogloss across the US, so I don't think there's an accepted order.)

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

Mark Steward — Tue, 12 Sep 2006 18:48:27 GMT

BTW, a lot of the time this distinction between a verbed compound and the original verb + particle is actually used as a distinguishing feature. Consider "run over" and "overrun" (which depend on slightly different functions of over). I have no problem with the verb to setup, because it carries different meaning to set up, and I'm fairly sure the meanings will diverge further in the future).

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

Dr. Helen Haridon — Tue, 12 Sep 2006 19:36:09 GMT

The "difference between a geek" and a nerd seems to change every time someone defines it. That is to say, there is no common agreement whatsoever among speakers of English on the distinction between the two words, and therefore there IS no distinction in any useful sense. To introduce a novel pair of definitions ex recto and pretend that *this* is what everybody else means when they use the words, is not your best move if you wish to pose as a sentient being, though I'll admit there's a lot of precedent. If your feelings tell you that the word "cow" indicates a creature with wings, you have not actually discovered anything new about bovine anatomy, nor about language. You have simply failed to note the existence of ego boundaries between yourself and the rest of the human race.

"Setup" is another example of the filthy and repulsive practice of verb/particle merging. A special place in Hell is reserved for people who write that way.

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

Rob — Tue, 12 Sep 2006 19:46:16 GMT

I had a weeklong ordeal trying to get checkout vs. check out standardized. I'm pretty sure I sometimes cheat on login vs. log in as well. Being in the habit of using runOnWords for variableAndFunctionNames doesn't help either.

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

RC5 — Tue, 12 Sep 2006 19:47:21 GMT

>> You have simply failed to note the existence of ego boundaries between yourself and the rest of the human race.

Hacker vs Cracker anyone ?

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

Miles Archer — Tue, 12 Sep 2006 19:54:27 GMT

No comment on Hacker, but a Cracker is someone from Georgia.

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

Brian Friesen — Tue, 12 Sep 2006 19:57:31 GMT

The big question of course is; log on, logon, log in or login? :)

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

BryanK — Tue, 12 Sep 2006 20:07:28 GMT

On the question of using "hacker" or "cracker":

Neither. "Moron" is probably most appropriate. :-P

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

Tue, 12 Sep 2006 20:20:14 GMT

>> The big question of course is; log on, logon, log in or login? :)

sign in, of course ;)

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

Dewi Morgan — Tue, 12 Sep 2006 21:25:23 GMT

"weeklong" ordeal? Or "week-long" or "week long"?

Anyway, regrettably, this entry has my sister's hearty seal of approval. When I asked her whether it should be "shutdown" or "shut down" she made all the same basic points from your post, including the one about germanic... ack. She interrupts. "'As'," she says. "Or 'as in' your post."

This is why so many linguists are found throttled each year.

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

Mark Steward — Tue, 12 Sep 2006 22:18:18 GMT

Helen: I think A Geek was making a joke, while I was proposing a model for its common usage.

Setup, etc. depends on the understanding of word-boudaries, which has definitely changed across the millennia, and probably varies from person to person. For example, is New Yorker one word or two? If one, why don't we write New-Yorker or Newyorker? If two, what does that mean for the word yorker?

Thanks to suffixes and prefixes, compound ambiguity has an effect in most (if not all) Indo-European languages. This is why such a language can't be learnt in isolation.

Cheers,
Mark

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

Tue, 12 Sep 2006 22:27:14 GMT

""weeklong" ordeal? Or "week-long" or "week long"?"

Since "week long" is a compound adjective describing "ordeal", you'd hyphenate it as "week-long ordeal".

When "week long" isn't a compound adjective, you don't hyphenate it. So you'd say "that ordeal was a week long".

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

Maurits — Wed, 13 Sep 2006 00:33:54 GMT

Both of J's comments are correct; but in addition, weeklong is a perfectly good word in itself.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/weeklong

It can be used interchangeably with week-long.

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

Claw — Wed, 13 Sep 2006 01:13:14 GMT

English's Germanic roots such as this are another reason why those who prescribe that preposition stranding must be avoided (as in Latin) are simply wrong.

E.g., "the computer that I shutdown" vs. "the computer down which I shut" (WTF?)

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

Loggy — Wed, 13 Sep 2006 01:29:22 GMT

Which is more correct?

login onto the computer
logon into the computer
logon onto the computer
login into the computer
log in onto the computer
log on into the computer
log on onto the computer
log in into the computer
login on to the computer
logon in to the computer
logon on to the computer
login in to the computer
log in on to the computer
log on in to the computer
log on on to the computer
log in in to the computer
login to the computer
logon to the computer
log into the computer
log onto the computer
log in to the computer
log on to the computer
logon the computer
log on the computer
login the computer
log in the computer

some other permutation (sign in/on...?)

Oh hell.

A Geek — Wed, 13 Sep 2006 01:45:47 GMT

Oh hell, I didn't mean to start this... but since I did, we are actually in agreement Mr. Steward.

The nerd isn't interested in social interaction (as you say) which is why he might spend his time obsessing over the mechanics and origin of his language (as I say) rather than speaking it.

The geek on the other hand doesn't care so much where or how his language originated, he just doesn't want to stumble, mumble, mis-speak, or otherwise err and make a fool of himself when he attempts to socialize with females of the species.

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

mech80 — Wed, 13 Sep 2006 03:02:36 GMT

I found your last comment particularly poignant - I spent 6 months in Germany after I finished high school, and learning a second language really opened my eyes to my own language. I suddenly found myself thinking about why things were the way they were rather than just using english without thinking about it. Learning German really helped my english abilities, even while making me forget so many words :) They came back quickly when I returned, but the comprehension stayed with me.

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

Cooney — Wed, 13 Sep 2006 04:38:04 GMT

> Neither. "Moron" is probably most appropriate. :-P

Which one is Woz?

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

J. Daniel Smith — Wed, 13 Sep 2006 05:43:41 GMT

"The more I learn about the other languages, the more I learn about my own."

I have a poster of Garfield (the comic strip cat) saying "Bark!" with the caption "Everyone should learn a foreign language." I agree completely.

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

AC — Wed, 13 Sep 2006 05:46:43 GMT

Here be England language without inflect:

Though the inflect and compound mania be large absent from the England language, there be still some vestige of its Germany root. One detail of England grammar that I often see neglect be the distinct between the verb+particle and the compound noun.

Consider the verb phrase "shut down", which be the one I see misuse more often. This be a verb+particle combine and treat as two word. When you turn it into a noun, however, it become "shutdown", one word. This Knowledge Base article, for example, manage keep its head on straight for most of the article, use the verb+particle for the verb form and the compound for the noun form:

\\computername: Use this switch to specify the remote computer to shut down.

/a: Use this switch to quit a shutdown operation.

But then it slip up towards the end and use the compound as a verb:

To schedule the local computer to shutdown and restart at 10:00 P.M. ...

In other Germany language the distinct be clearer. Consider the Sweden and Germany verb for "make up" (as in, "make up an alibi"):

hitta på påhittad
legen zurecht zurechtlegen

In the verb+particle form, the particle come after the verb, whereas in the single word form, the particle come before the verb. It be therefore more obvious when you have one word and when you have two. England do this one rare, type for verb that retain poet or archive appeal ("cast down" → "downcast") and therefore reach back to the language's Germany root for its power.

This be one of the reason why I be so fascinate by the Germany language: The more I learn about the other language, the more I learn about my own.

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

Whatever — Wed, 13 Sep 2006 07:44:30 GMT

Geek, nerd, doesn't bother me - just don't call me a dork. ;)

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

dp — Wed, 13 Sep 2006 11:14:57 GMT

Is "zurecht" really a particle in the German verb "zurechtlegen", or is it just a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_verbs#Separable_prefixes">separable prefix</a>?

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

AndyB — Wed, 13 Sep 2006 13:24:49 GMT

to be honest, even though you say its wrong, you're treating the language as a fixed specification. Languages are in a permanent state of flux, the only requirement is that people can understand what you meant when you say (or type) something.

So "shutdown the computer", and "shut down the computer" are both perfectly acceptable in the modern usage.

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

Shut up — Wed, 13 Sep 2006 14:44:02 GMT

"shutdownthecomputer" is also understandable.

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

BryanK — Wed, 13 Sep 2006 15:18:38 GMT

> Which one is Woz?

I assume you mean Steve Wozniak; I'd call him a "hacker". I don't think anyone could call him a "cracker", though.

To be more specific: I was (sort of) proposing the use of "moron" for those who break into things (those that many people want to call "crackers"). "Hacker", I think, should remain the word used for both people making furniture and people writing good code.

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

David Walker — Wed, 13 Sep 2006 19:22:09 GMT

Yes, I started understanding English (my native language) much better once I started learning Spanish in high school. Training in a foreign language was even better than the English classes in making me understand English grammar.

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

Cody — Thu, 14 Sep 2006 16:18:25 GMT

> English's Germanic roots such as this are
> another reason why those who prescribe that
> preposition stranding must be avoided (as in
> Latin) are simply wrong.

> E.g., "the computer that I shutdown" vs. "the
> computer down which I shut" (WTF?)

The "down" in "shut down" is a particle, not a preposition. Thus, it doesn't violate a stranded preposition rule.

Just like the "on" in "I was putting you on." or the "off" in "The report? I was putting that off."

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

Nerdling — Tue, 19 Sep 2006 20:59:21 GMT

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7939447080926152362&q=White+and+Nerdy

re: Grammar review: Verb+particle versus compound noun

Johann Gerell — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 12:53:08 GMT

> hitta på påhittad

Well, in Swedish, "påhittad" is an adjective - and "påhitt" is a noun, if a noun was what you meant, Raymond.

TFS Version Control Concepts 0: Vocabulary

BUGBUG: poor title — Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:38:58 GMT

To summarize the goals laid out in my reintroduction , I want a chance to start my TFVC "story" from