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Progressive Development

Zany Adventures in Software Engineering with Maven and Motley
James says: "I want some feedback!"

[Context: Maven and Motley are hanging out in the office, and have a feeling they are being spied upon]

 

Maven: Hey Mot, I heard that guy James Waletzky over in the Engineering Excellence group has been listening in our conversations and posting a blog summarizing them.

 

Motley: What?!?!? If he's making any money off that I want a BIG cut!

 

Maven: Relax. Blogs are voluntary and I understand he does it on his own time. I overheard him say that he's receiving some feedback via e-mail, but that he was hoping he would receive more feedback on it via blog comments to stir some interactive conversation. He wants to know what people like, and what can be improved.

 

Motley: Understandable. If I was doing that kind of work I would want to know what works and what doesn't.  In particular, I'd want to know if people were enjoying it. What can we do?

 

Maven: Not much for us to do. Just pass the word along to our buddies and encourage them to comment. BUT, I guess the most important thing we can do is to continue to have meaningful conversations to feed his material.

 

Motley: I can do that, but if he ever gets any monetary benefit from this stuff I WANT IN!

 

Maven: I know you value money, but jeez. There are no plans at the moment for monetary benefit, so cool your jets!

Posted: Friday, June 08, 2007 12:04 PM by James Waletzky

Comments

Vic said:

At first I wasn't so sure about the Maven/Motley format, but I'm starting to like it more all the time.  It's unique and sets your blog apart.

I liked your recent post about Toyota and lean development.  I think that hearing examples of how others are using agile techniques is encouraging and a useful selling point that agilists can reuse in evangelizing efforts.

# June 8, 2007 4:45 PM

David Scheidt said:

I really like the format.  These are great conversations that seem to occur every day.  It's a very cool blog, and 'Keep it up!'

# June 8, 2007 5:32 PM

Another James W. said:

I really enjoy the format you use, I've always like word problems because they show real world situations for otherwise boring problems.

TDD makes alot of sense for back-end code but I work on the UI portion of the app how can I use some of those ideas.

# June 8, 2007 7:44 PM

James Waletzky said:

Thanks for the feedback! Glad to see you guys are enjoying the blog. If you have any ideas for improvement or topics for the future, please let me know.

As for the question on TDD and UI code, your best strategy is support a layered architecture and ensure your UI layer is as thin as possible (think Model-View-Controller pattern). The UI layer handles presentation and delegates any kind of logic processing to an object model. Use TDD the object model and below.

Fact of the matter is that it is really hard to unit test a UI. UI automation tools exist, but then we're talking more build verification testing and regression testing as opposed to unit testing. It's hard to run that kind of test quickly, which is a primary characteristic of unit tests.

Bottom line: don't put much logic in your UI layer at all - dump it in an object model and use TDD against the object model.

# June 9, 2007 12:30 PM

Gil Zilberfeld said:

I can't believe you let them know you're recording this stuff!

It is a great format, and I even had a TDD chat with someone that went along like the one you described. I wish that everyone would listen and take action like Motley.

Keep on the good work,

Gil

# June 10, 2007 10:52 AM

corey said:

Regarding unit testing user interfaces:

State machines are your friends.  Especially hierarchical state machines like Harel statecharts.

# June 11, 2007 3:14 PM

James Waletzky said:

Thanks for the feedback, Gil!

And for the state machine comment, I totally agree that state machines are a fantastic way to design the UI underpinnings. Well in line with the model view separation approach as well. Thanks Corey!

# June 12, 2007 12:10 PM

Tom said:

Here's another vote for keeping Maven and Motley going! I use it as a mind-break about mid-morning, which is good because I feel like I'm taking a breather from working, but I still end up drip-feeding my brain.  Thanks for your efforts!

# June 14, 2007 6:15 AM

Carl Manaster said:

I'm enjoying the series.  It's (slightly) reminiscent of the old Kon & Bal dialogs from Apple's late lamented d e v e l o p magazine.  I think dialog is a great format; please keep it up.

# July 24, 2007 12:51 AM

James Waletzky said:

Thanks for all the great feedback and vote of support! I'll definitely keep the conversations going. They are lots of work but worth it if people find value. Let me know what else you like, what could use improvements, and what topics you'd like to see addressed in the future.

# July 24, 2007 6:16 PM

Michael Shelnutt said:

I love the format and information

Been reading up on all the blogs you have here and directing my staff and co-workers to do the same.

Keep it going!

# August 2, 2007 5:08 PM
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