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How can I trust Firefox?

[Fixed issues with images; sorry]

[Removed the clear=all problem; thanks for pointing it out]

[Added a follow-up post here]

Recently, a lot of volunteers donated money to the Firefox project to pay for a two-page advert in the New York Times.

If only they had spent some of that money on improving the security of their users by, say, purchasing a VeriSign code signing certificate.

Let me explain...

One of the many criticisms of Internet Explorer is that customers are fooled into downloading spyware or adware on to their computers. This is indeed a legitimate problem, and one of the ways you can reduce the risks of getting unwanted software on your machine is to only accept digitally signed software from vendors that you trust. Every time you download a random piece of software from a random location, you're taking your chances with your PC and all the information stored on it. You wouldn't take candy from strangers, would you?

In order to help protect customers, the default install of Internet Explorer will completely block the installation of ActiveX controls that are not signed, and it will suggest that you do not install any unsigned programs that you might try to download. Of course, just because a piece of software is signed (or you have the MD5 hashes for it) doesn't mean it isn't nasty; it just provides some evidence you can use to make a trust decision about the software (in logical terms, it is a necessary but not sufficient condition for trusting software).

So what happens when a typical user decides it's time to download Firefox and enjoy the secure browsing experience that it has to offer? Well, sit back, relax, and let me take you on a journey.

First of all, I went to the advertised www.getfirefox.com, and was redirected to the real page at www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/.
From there I easily located the download link, and clicking on the it gave me the following dialog:

Download Firefox image

Hmmmm, wait a minute. I went to www.getfirefox.com, not mirror.sg.depaul.edu. I don't have any idea where that place is, and it sure makes me nervous. IE has informed me that "If you do not trust the source, do not run or save this software."

Do I really trust a bunch of kids at some random university I've never heard of? Hopefully, the average person will decide that they do not trust this web site, and they will click Cancel. No Firefox for you!

But being a brave soul (and not caring if my Virtual PC image dies a horrible death) I click Run. A few seconds later, I get the following dialog:

Picture of unsigned Firefox executable warning

What?

Not only does this software come from a completely random university server, but I have no way of checking if it is the authentic Firefox install or some maliciously altered copy. (I sure hope those 10 million people who have downloaded Firefox so far haven't all download backdoors into their system...). Since "You should only run software from publishers you trust" and since the publisher cannot be verified, I should click Don't Run (which is, thankfully, the default).

But, again, being a brave soul I click Run.

I am then greeted with this dialog:

'Picture of random setup dialog --

Oops, my network connection died. But still... that kind of unintelligible dialog doesn't do anything to make me trust the installer. Maybe this is a trojaned copy of Firefox after all?

Forging blindly ahead, I download the software again (this time coming from -- I kid you not! -- a numeric IP address, the bastion of spammers and phishers and all manner of other digital rogues) and run the installer. This time things are actually looking good:

·Installer runs fine

·I accept the defaults

·Firefox starts

·It asks if I want to make it the default browser; no thanks

·I get this dialog (seriously):

Picture of blank Message Box (not even a title bar)

Hmmm, a completely blank MessageBox. Well, OK is the default choice, so I guess I should accept that. No idea what it will do to my system though.

My confidence in this software is growing in leaps and bounds.

I decide to reboot the VPC just in case that dialog was trying to tell me something important. After rebooting, I boot up Firefox and it seems to be working fine.

I decide to install some extensions because, hey, everyone on Slashdot loves them so much. I browse to the extensions page and decide that the Amazon.com Sidebar sounds cool (I love Amazon, and Amazon loves my credit card). Clicking on the link brings up this dialog:

Picture of Firefox Extension Install dialog

It dutifully tells me the extension isn't signed (good), but makes the default choice Install Now (bad). This is the opposite of what Internet Explorer decided to default to when it detected unsigned code (ref: above). Now tell me again, which is the more secure browser?

(Just so I don't get inundated with comments about this, Firefox does disable the Install button for a couple of seconds when the dialog is first displayed, but by the time I had finished reading the text in the dialog it was enabled and ready to go).

Next, I want to go somewhere that uses Flash (heh, coz we all know I love Flash!). I'll try the Ocean's 12 official web site, www.oceanstwelve.net, which detects that Flash isn't installed and gives me a link to install it. Clicking on the link, I get taken to the Macromedia page, where I can download Flash. Firefox prevents me from running the executable straight away, and forces me to save it to disk. That's probably a good move for most users, although personally I tend to click Run inside IE because I know it will warn me about unsigned programs. Nevertheless, it is but a minor speed bump on the way to malware infection, as we shall see in the next step.

Once the file is saved, I can open it from the little downloads dialog that pops up. The problem is, there is no indication as to whether or not the file is digitally signed; I just get the usual "This could be a virus; do you want to run it anyway?" dialog. But without any evidence to base my trust decision on (where it came from, who the publisher was, etc.), what should I do? Of course, the right thing to do would be to delete the file and never install Flash, but I really want to install it so I guess I have to go ahead and run the thing.

What's really frightening though is that there is a "Don't ask me again" option in this dialog... which means that if you check the box you could end up running any old garbage on your system without so much as a single warning. Doesn't sound so secure to me...

So anyway, Flash installs and I can view the Ocean's 12 website OK. But now what if there's a security bug found in Flash and I want to disable it? With Internet Explorer, I can simply set the Internet Zone to "High" security mode (to block all ActiveX controls), or I could go to the Tools -> Manage Add-Ons dialog if I just wanted to disable Flash until an update was available. How do I disable Flash inside Firefox? Good question. I don't see any menu items or Tools -> Options settings, the Tools -> Extensions dialog doesn't help, and Flash isn't even listed in Add / Remove Programs.

According to Google, I have to download yet another unsigned extension to enable the blocking of Flash content. Ho-hum. The first download mirror that the page sent me to gave a 403: Forbidden error; luckily the second mirror worked OK and, once again playing digital Russian Roulette, I installed the extension and rebooted Firefox twice (yes twice) as instructed to install it. To be fair, the extension is pretty cool, but that's not the point: How do I know I didn't just install some terrible malware from a compromised web server? Who owns xmundo.net anyway, and can their admins be trusted? And what if I accidentally browsed to some site hosting a malicious Flash movie whilst trying to download the extension?

(Always remember the Ten Immutable Laws of Security, and in particular Law #1: If a bad guy can persuade you to run his program on your computer, it's not your computer any more.)

To continue my benevolent fairness, I actually think Firefox is a nice browser. It seems to render HTML without any problems, and the tabs are nice for browsing Slashdot. But just because it doesn't currently have any unpatched security vulnerabilities talked about in the press doesn't mean they don't exist (Secunia currently lists three unpatched vulnerabilities, for example).

Mozilla has had its share of security vulnerabilities in the past (just as IE has), and -- despite what the open source folk might say -- Mozilla keeps their security bugs hidden from the public (just like Microsoft does) in order to protect their customers from coming under attack by malicious users. Note that this is not a bad thing; all vendors should treat security bugs responsibly to ensure customers are not put at undue risk. It's just something you should be aware of. Just because you don't see any unpatched security bugs in Bugzilla doesn't mean they don't exist, either.

But the thing that makes me really not trust the browser is that it doesn't matter how secure the original code is if the typical usage pattern of the browser requires users to perform insecure actions.

·Installing Firefox requires downloading an unsigned binary from a random web server

·Installing unsigned extensions is the default action in the Extensions dialog

·There is no way to check the signature on downloaded program files

·There is no obvious way to turn off plug-ins once they are installed

·There is an easy way to bypass the "This might be a virus" dialog

This is what the "Secure Deployment" part of Microsoft's SD3+C campaign is all about; we design and develop secure software, but we make sure that customers can deploy it securely as well.

I personally don't care if people choose to run Firefox or Linux or any other software on their computers -- it's their computer, after all -- but we'll never get past the spyware / adware problem if people continue to think that installing unsigned code from random web sites is A Good Idea.

So, at this point in time, installing (and using) Firefox encourages exactly the sort of behaviour we are trying to steer people away from, and to me that makes it part of the problem, not the solution.

(Thanks to Mike and Robert and the other folk who gave this a once-over before posting; any errors are still mine though ;-) ).

Published Monday, December 20, 2004 6:11 PM by ptorr
Filed under:

Comments

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

well, reading this blog post in IE isn't much better - I can't see any of the images you're supposedly referencing. Maybe it's a problem with your blogging tool?
Monday, December 20, 2004 12:21 PM by some guy

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Can't see dialog pics.
Monday, December 20, 2004 12:37 PM by vj

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

I love the smell of a flame war in the morning.
Monday, December 20, 2004 12:46 PM by G. Man

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

"Note that this is not a bad thing;"

When did security by obscurity become a good thing? Someone will always find security holes and exploit them. I beleive in full disclosure and informing the users about the flaws in the software they are using.

I prefer vendors telling me about their security holes and giving me patches, rather than trying to cover things up behaving as if nothing were the matter...
Monday, December 20, 2004 12:47 PM by Marcus Libäck

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

As with all software, you're only safe until someone decides they want to use it as a backdoor entry point. It's only a matter of time before people realize that FF is just as insecure as IE. This will occur naturally as the number of users switch to FF, ironically, to avoid the security flaws on IE.

I remember a discussion I had in my software engineering class senior year regarding OSS. My argument basically amounted to using the analogy that OSS represents a big security hole since it's esssentially a blueprint to your vault (unless you have modifid the original source and made it more secure). The counter argument was that since it was OSS, the bugs would be caught faster by "enthusiasts" and user groups and thus fixed faster. Well, that's dependent on three factors:

1. Do you trust these "enthusiasts"? I know that a lot of them are well educated, Phd wielding, CS gurus. But I also know that there are a bunch of incompetent/untrustworthy individuals as well.

2. Do you trust that all bugs will be reported by the people that find them instead of being exploited?

3. Do you trust all users to immediately get the new, patched source/binaries?
Monday, December 20, 2004 12:53 PM by Charles Chen

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

With my previous comment out of the way (sorry, thought of this later), I do like FF for two reasons:

1. DOM explorer
2. Javascript Console
3. Better standards compliance

These three, combined, make it a DHTML/Web UI developers *dream* to work with.
Monday, December 20, 2004 12:55 PM by Charles Chen

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Excellent article. I never thought about it when installing FF, tho I DO think about those kind of things when using IE. Go figure.

(that said, I use both for very different, specific reasons. Add tabs, opening a list of bookmarks in tabs, and put popup blocking in the IE6 on Win2K3, and I'm set)

:)

Cheers
Monday, December 20, 2004 1:01 PM by Nic Wise

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

If you want to make sure that you get
a clean, Mozilla approved Firefox, you
*can* do that: go to
http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/1.0/
(reachable via the download section on
the Firefox and Mozilla websites).
This allows you to download the Firefox
versions for you locale and OS.
And: it offers 3 ways of ensuring that
the binary you get is the one published by mozilla
- MD5 Sums of all binaries
- SHA1 Sums (if you don't trust MD5)
- GnuPG/PGP signatures for each binary;

So: you *can* check the validity
of your Firefox binary.

BTW: "getting a Versign Code Signing
cert" is just as safe as these solutions (It's not like a malicious
attacker can't obtain a Verisign
cert. It's not like
any end user even knows what a cert
is... so they surely can't decide
whether it's right or not).
Monday, December 20, 2004 1:06 PM by murphee

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Charles -- you have a buffer overflow there! You only allocated enough space for two reasons, but tried to stuff three into it ;-)
Monday, December 20, 2004 1:07 PM by Peter Torr

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

murphee -- thanks for the link; did the NYT ad tell people what SHA1 sums were and how to use them to verify the correctness of their download? (And if it did... did anyone understand?)
Monday, December 20, 2004 1:13 PM by Peter Torr

# Why I don't trust FireFox? A lot of reasons...

Monday, December 20, 2004 4:28 PM by andrew connell

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

About that unsigned amazon toolbar pkg, I had nothing but trouble getting firefox to recognize my signed xpi's. I've got latest tools and everything (proof, it detects the signature and works in Netscape 7), but something's amiss in FireFox-land. That's why our website will detect firefox and offer the unsigned version when we roll out...

Help or follow-up to my e-mail...

-Michael Scholz
Monday, December 20, 2004 1:33 PM by mikeshlz@blarg.net

#

Monday, December 20, 2004 4:40 PM by Michael Howard's Web Log

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Marcus -- to each his own. There are strong arguments both for and against Full Disclosure, but I think I'll stick to one controversial blog a day, thankyou very much ;-)
Monday, December 20, 2004 1:45 PM by Peter Torr

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Fantastic post
Monday, December 20, 2004 2:01 PM by Sahil Malik

# How can he trust Firefox?

Monday, December 20, 2004 5:03 PM by blog.dreampro

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

You made some good points...

However. One of the dialogs that popped up indicates a problem with 7-zip, not with Firefox. Pehaps the problem is that the entire download did not complete... which isn't really a problem with Firefox.

Another point is the dialog box with the empty message. I have seen this problem before and it had to do with bugs in McAffee's overflow detection. This bug should be fixed in updated version of VirusScan.

There are ways to verify the authenticity of a downloaded executable besides buying a trusted certificate from Verisign. They could post the hash information on a website (with an SSL certificate) which you could verify against. (This is admittedly less convenient).

Many Linux package deployement programs verify against trusted hashes, etc.

It is important to point out that extremely respected security analysts such as Bruce Schnier recomment against using Internet Explorer, Period.

Firefox is often cited as a good alternative.

So if I combine your advice with Bruce Schnier's, it boils down to:

1. Be diligent when downloading Firefox to ensure you are getting it from the right source.

2. Do not use any untrusted plugins.

3. Do not use IE except when absolutely necessary to download your intial copy of Firefox.
Monday, December 20, 2004 2:06 PM by Robert Isaacs

# How can you trust Firefox?

Microsoft's Peter Torr invites a flame war with his essay, How can I trust Firefox? He walks through the installation and configuration process with Firefox and determines that it reinforces some particularly bad habits for users. He concludes: I actually think Firefox is a nice browser. It seems to render HTML without any problems, and the tabs are nice for browsing Slashdot. But just because it doesn't currently have any unpatched security vulnerabilities talked about in the press doesn't mean they don't exist (Secunia currently lists three unpatched vulnerabilities, for example). Mozilla has had its share of security vulnerabilities in the past (just as IE has), and -- despite what the open source folk might say -- Mozilla keeps their security bugs hidden from the public (just like Microsoft does) in order to protect their customers from coming under attack by malicious users. Note that this is not a bad thing; all vendors should treat security bugs responsibly to ensure customers are not put at undue risk. It's just something you should be aware of. Just because you don't see any unpatched security bugs in Bugzilla doesn't mean they don't exist, either. But the thing that makes me really not...
Monday, December 20, 2004 5:09 PM by Ed Bott - Windows (and Office) Expertise

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Charles Chen says:

"1. Do you trust these "enthusiasts"? I know that a lot of them are well educated, Phd wielding, CS gurus. But I also know that there are a bunch of incompetent/untrustworthy individuals as well.

2. Do you trust that all bugs will be reported by the people that find them instead of being exploited?

3. Do you trust all users to immediately get the new, patched source/binaries? "

-----

1. Peer review is an important process within Open Source. In Mozilla projects, nothing gets checked in without a review and superreview from project leaders.

2. The source is fully open and the program is used by millions. The chances that a bug will be found by a single person are minute.

3. Firefox includes an auto-update mechanism to ensure users are patched at all times.

Really, if you are going to criticise, please do some research first.
Monday, December 20, 2004 2:17 PM by Colin Ramsay

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

I download software from websites I trust. Having a box telling me that the software is signed doesn't mean jack to me.

The reason I stopped using IE was because Firefox gives me simplicity and control. I no longer have to worry about security zones, popups, irritating animated banners and flash controls. I don't have to worry about spyware activex controls and BSO's taking over my computer. I don't have to worry about deleting my browsing history and finding out that it wasn't actually deleted. I feel more at ease working with software that follows and supports public standards.

But most importantly, I like the underdog. ;-)



Monday, December 20, 2004 2:38 PM by Gabe A.

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Monday, December 20, 2004 2:55 PM by Someone Else

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

First, nobody except big companies that can afford it get a Verisign security certificate and thus users already ignore the Are you sure? This isn't signed. dialog boxes.

Second, Just because Verisign trusts the certificate, I never said I trusted it nor did I ever say I trust Verisign to make these decisions for me.

The 7-zip: Unspecified Error issue has been reported to both Mozilla and 7-zip. It is caused by a corrupt download.

The download location is not random. It is limited to those in the DNS roundrobin of mirrors.

Mozilla extensions can be signed and people have done so in the past.

As for the issues you bring up, they are valid in general. If you come up with a solution, nothing prevents you from filing a bug and patch on the issue.

Don't complain about problems, solve them.
Monday, December 20, 2004 2:58 PM by Brant Gurganus

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Great post Peter,

I agree completely with your assessment. The web would be a much better (and trusted) place if people learned the basic security precautions that you outline about basic application installation.

Working in infomration security for many years now, I personally don't install any unsigned plug-ins, etc. I closely review any application that isn't code signed, even those that come on CD. If the pubblisher can't be bothered with simple code signing, then where else did they take shortcuts that will compromise the application. I haven't looked at FireFox yet, but if the install is as insecure as your description, I would never install it!

I think the use of the term "security" is many times over generalized, as to be almost meaningless in some cases. If FireFox is stating they are "more secure", just what exactly does that mean, or is it just hollow marketing speak? With FireFox promoting this unsecure application installation from the get-go, you have to seriously question how well they did on the rest of the security in the application.

Based on the feedback here, and what I have read about FireFox in other places, it seems to be more a browser for "geeks" and not really for consumers. What average user needs a DOM explorer or a Javascript console? This looks like just another application built by software developers for software developers.

I agree with the comment that most people that read that advert in NYT aren't going to have a clue about verifying a digest value or even using PGP. Even among the security professionals I know, PGP is still more a novelty, opposed to an everyday trust verification tool. At least with Code Signing, there are easily accessable tools built-in to verify signatures so that one can have a level of trust in the computer. However, in the end, until the OS flat-out refuses to install any application, plug-in, etc. that is not code signed (with no ability to override), we will continue to have trust problems.

-- rcme
Monday, December 20, 2004 3:13 PM by rcme

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

·Installing Firefox requires downloading an unsigned binary from a random web server

It's not a "random web server", it's a mirror selected by the Firefox web site. If you can't trust this mirror, then you shouldn't trust the original site: the chain of references is direct and explicit, the only way this could be a dangerous action is if the Firefox site itself is compromised, and if that happens all bets are off.

The whole "signed binary" mechanism is a Windows-specific response to a fundamental design flaw in the way Internet Explorer and Windows Explorer are built over the same HTML control with rights assigned based on the "security zone" of the object rather than based on the path and origin of the object. No other browser provides a mechanism to trust files from "random web servers" without an explicit user action, and thus doesn't need to depend on certificates the way IE does.

·Installing unsigned extensions is the default action in the Extensions dialog

Only if they're downloaded directly from the Mozilla website. Anywhere else (inlcuding a mirror), and it pops up a bar that informs you you're installing an extension from an unknown site.

·There is no way to check the signature on downloaded program files

See above.

·There is no obvious way to turn off plug-ins once they are installed

Tools -> Extensions.

·There is an easy way to bypass the "This might be a virus" dialog

The only reason this kind of dialog is important for IE is that it's the only human confirmation between the browser and launching a program. Firefox doesn't launch installers automatically, you have to explicitly select and open them.

This is no different from saving to your desktop and then double-clicking on the icon there.

"According to Google, I have to download yet another unsigned extension to enable the blocking of Flash content."

The Flashblock extension doesn't just "block flash content", it allows you to interactively enable flash applets on a case-by-case basis. It's unrelated to deleting the plugin.

"How do I know I didn't just install some terrible malware from a compromised web server?"

Same way you know you didn't download some terrible *signed* malware that you might get from some external website. You follow a chain of delegation from a site you trust.

Just because a component is signed doesn't mean it's secure. All it means is that there's a good chance that, if it does turn out to be a trojan horse, you have a better chance of tracing it back to someone who bought a certificate.

Secondarily, a signed plugin or applet (say, Macromedia Flash itself) may have security flaws. being able to track down the source of the program doesn't help if the exposure was inadvertant.

Basically, the way Microsoft uses signatures is not good security practice, it's part of a long-running contest between Microsoft and Microsoft's original flawed design for desktop-browser integration. Switching from a browser that requires signatures to one that doesn't need to trust content from untrusted sources to do its job, well, that wins you so much more.

And, of course, Firefox can easily add requirements for signatures if it becomes necessary. Microsoft can only fix IE by redesigning dozens of their own applications (Outlook, Windows Explorer, Windows Update, ...) and breaking compatibility for a huge percentage of the applications out there.

"Mozilla keeps their security bugs hidden from the public (just like Microsoft does) in order to protect their customers from coming under attack by malicious users."

Most don't stay hidden very long. I've submitted a security bug, and shortly afterwards it was "unhidden" because it wasn't considered something that could lead to untrusted code execution. Similar bugs reported to Microsoft vanish into the ether.

"But just because it doesn't currently have any unpatched security vulnerabilities talked about in the press doesn't mean they don't exist"

The difference between Firefox and IE is that Firefox doesn't have a deep design flaw that has remained unfixed for seven years because it can't be fixed without changing the API and causing the publisher loss of face.

I may seem excessively harsh on Microsoft here, but back before the flood of exploits and viruses I was responsible for the conversion of our users from X-terminals (thin clients) to Windows desktops. In the process of this I evaluated Outlook and IE for our division, and I rejected them. It was obvious to me, even back then, that there were huge security issues inherent in using the same component for the desktop and the browser, and while it could have been done safely (say, by having the HTML component contain no internet access, plugin, or application launch mechanism... having it call back to the parent applications exclusively for content) Microsoft's design was inherently almost impossible to implement safely.

I didn't know what the failure mode would be... this was back before Melissa... but I knew it would be spectacular. And, of course, it was.

What really bothers me is that Microsoft, rather than backing away and launching a reliable design, has spent the past seven years trying to shore up 'security zones' to limit the damage... and failing. I see no prospect that they will ever find a solution to the general problem, OR back out of the flawed design.

And *that*, in the end, is why you're better off trusting almost any browser that doesn't use the Microsoft HTML control. Its own problems are unlikely to be as long-lasting and hard to resolve.
Monday, December 20, 2004 3:32 PM by Peter da Silva

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

I posted about this back in July. That post was based on v0.9, IIRC, but a lot of it's still relevant.

http://mikedimmick.blogspot.com/2004/07/techworldcom-browser-rival-to-activex.html

As I recall, v1.0 now has an information bar clone which pops up when you click an XPInstall link. This allows you to select which sites you want to be able to start plug-in downloads. Unfortunately it's not single-shot like IE's.

I'm sticking with IE too. It's a known quantity. Firefox is an unknown quantity and without any form of formal prerelease testing, I don't trust it (same for any other non-trivial OSS without formal testing, like Linux).
Monday, December 20, 2004 3:46 PM by Mike Dimmick

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

If you want tabbed browsing, but dont like FireFox, try AvantBrowser (www.avantbrowser.com)

suits me just fine
Monday, December 20, 2004 4:07 PM by Anon

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

This page doesnt even render correctly in Firefox. Half the article is scrolled way down - you wouldnt even know it is there!! what the.....
Monday, December 20, 2004 4:13 PM by G DAWG

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

firefox is teh rox! sux0r


-AC
Monday, December 20, 2004 4:20 PM by AC

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Heh, nice comments about security certs there, considering there was for quite some time (Still is?) a security vulnerability in IE where a malicious website owner could spoof microfts certificate. The Advisory stated the workaround was to not permanently trust microsofts certificate and try to judge installs on a case by case basis. Making them... pretty much useless. I also like the way you try to blame an unintelligble dialogue in 7-zip on firefox as well! Don't get me wrong, 7-zip is a great though often terse program, but it has NOTHING to do with firefox.
Monday, December 20, 2004 4:30 PM by Nathan Lanyon

# Una lettura interessante: How can I trust Firefox?

Monday, December 20, 2004 7:33 PM by Lorenzo Barbieri @ UGIblogs!

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Monday, December 20, 2004 5:21 PM by xper

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

I spend most of my time in the Computer Industry removing spyware/adware from home users and business users who don't understand anything about security. That is the way the industry is. THE ABSOLUTE most effective solution i have found to date, is to disable internet explorer, install Firefox, install Spyware Blaster, Install Spybot Search and Destroy (tea timer).

Since performing these actions on hundreds of clients computers i have not had ONE (Not even a little one) of those clients ever have a problem with spyware/adware.

Btw, didn't your mother teach you to always save to disk instead of running files from the online location! tut tut!
Monday, December 20, 2004 5:36 PM by ClickStart

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

GDawg: This page doesnt even render correctly in Firefox. Half the article is scrolled way down - you wouldnt even know it is there!! what the.....


http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A//blogs.msdn.com/ptorr/archive/2004/12/20/327511.aspx
Monday, December 20, 2004 5:43 PM by Jim

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

The war of operating systems' security is restarted; the war of browsers' security is restarted; the war of security seen as lines of codes is also restarted; There is the situation in the last days; there are some of my toughts on the subject; take this post as a trackback:
http://radio.weblogs.com/0140770/2004/12/20.html
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:09 PM by Fred

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Well I certainly don't miss the automagically changed home page, unrequested added toolbars, flurry of popups, and self installed spyware that I was plagued with when I used IE. Microsoft has had 9 years to prove whether they know how to handle network security correctly (I figure MS didn't really have a networked machine until August 1995) and have thus far failed. I'm quite willing to give Mozilla the next 9 years to prove themselves one way or another.

Yeah - I know - "Wait until the next version. It'll be awesome. Honest." (c) 1972-2005 Microsoft, Inc.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:09 PM by Steve Jezek

# Uh-oh, here comes slashdot...

Flame on!
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:14 PM by Anonymous Coward

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

How do I trust Verisign? I mean I seem to recall quite a few stolen keys being released in the past. You want security. Use a VM like you did. Don't allow the user to install anything. Without doing a su or RunAs. Oh wait I forgot.....Windows XP wants you to be Administrator by default.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:15 PM by Steven Edwards

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Congratulations, you just started a flamewar. >:(
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:18 PM by HydraPheetz

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

this guy obviously does not understand that if one approaches something from a very narrow convoluted worldview people are instantly going to recognize that he's unsuitable to take advice from.

let's get this straight - he doesn't trust a bunch of kids at a school putting out software.
However he'll trust a bunch of execs at a major corporation.

hahahaha

your narrowmindedness is exceeded only by your narrowmindedness
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:19 PM by abhi

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

"Firefox is an unknown quantity and without any form of formal prerelease testing, I don't trust it"

no prerelease testing? How long was it available in beta form? at least two years.
At least I know that if Firefox crashes, it won't take Windows with it.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:20 PM by unfunk

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

As a lover of open source and a lover of Firefox, I'd like to say thanks for your helpful suggestions. I hope Firefox will take them on board.

I apologize for all the reactionaries who may mistakenly flame you.

Will Smith
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:21 PM by Will Smith

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Bias anyone? Sorry, but Firefox is not meant for complete idiots. IE has had this great security policy for how long? About a month? Only after years of screwing people and their computers over and strong-arming its way into the marketplace.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:23 PM by Jason

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

How do I trust Verisgn?
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:25 PM by blog.msdn?

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

if it's a choice between possibly downloading a copy of FireFox one time which may be trojaned, which i can check by comparing MD5Sum's after i download, or using IE and being infected with a new piece of spyware every 5 days, i choose to take the 1-time risk of Firefox.

and by the way, on the whole, mirrors have a very good security track record. only very few times has an application been found to be trojaned on a mirror, and checking the MD5 or PGP signature usually prevents the trojaned software from even getting installed.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:25 PM by pete

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

"Of course, just because a piece of software is signed (or you have the MD5 hashes for it) doesn't mean it isn't nasty; it just provides some evidence you can use to make a trust decision about the software (in logical terms, it is a necessary but not sufficient condition for trusting software)."

You failed logic class, didn't you? No, that is not a translation in logical terms, unless you honestly believe every piece of software without a signature will do bad things to your computer, or at the very least you honestly believe that there is no way one can trust a piece of software without a signature. Necessary does not "provides some evidence" about something, in logical terms it is a conditional.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:25 PM by Nick

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Do you realise that ALL ur errors did come from all the third parties software u have installed ? Next time to be real, try on a blank install, with no buggy AV or other thing intereacting.

On code signing, Mozilla project is open source and commited in its politics too and the last thing the project will do is to invest into stupid code signing whereas the good old unix md5, sha-1 ang gpg signing are as reliable if not more ( you have 3 unique ways to check your binary ).

Take it or leave it.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:26 PM by anonymous

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Bottom Line:

Microsoft has had almost a decade and millions of dollars to make IE work perfectly. They haven't touched it for years. Oh, they have? That's right -- they have to keep creating security updates, and even with that, IE is still unsafe, and it is possible for malicious code to easily do something as nasty as taking over a user's computer and erasing all the drives. I have had to fix Windows systems that were literally slowed to a halt because of spyware -- all installed by malicious code, without the user's premission. You can use any terms you want, you can say any thing about Firefox you want to.


The bottom line is that for years IE has been proven insecure, and MS has not EVER effectively made it safe. Firefox, by simple design, includes a sandbox that keeps your computer safe -- something MS, with billions of dollars and years of time to code, has NEVER been WILLING to do.

Oh, and the latest MS solution to security, if you're not running XP SP2? Buy a new computer. Who, besides a MS employee, or someone trained by them, would consider that safe?


Monday, December 20, 2004 6:27 PM by Hal Vaughan

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

You sir, Peter Torr, are a tool! You REALLY need to take the time you spent analyzing Firefox, and do the EXACT same thing with ALL MS software prior to XP SP2. IE only gained its current level of security as a result of SP2 which has taken HOW many years to reach this level? Think about it.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:28 PM by Happy Firefox User

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Take a look: http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/21/0038235&tid=172&tid=154&tid=109&tid=113&tid=1
Your very own Slashdot thread...
on a side note, I wouldn't trust Verisign with a plastic spoon.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:29 PM by rel4x

# How can I trust IE?

To run Internet Explorer, I must trust that Microsoft won't do something bad to me via their software.

To run Firefox, I must trust that the Mozilla Foundation won't do something bad to me via their software.

So far, the Mozilla Foundation has had a much better track record for bug fixes and holes than Microsoft has.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:29 PM by Demiurge

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

The solution is perfectly obvious. Entice a acquaintance to download and install everything before you; then get the binaries from he or she once you have determined everything to be safe and sound.

Everyone needs a guniea pig. A naive co-worker, gullible little brother, perhaps one of your elderly parents if you're the ungrateful type. But regardless, the result is the same: Better them than you!

In fact, I don't trust this webpage.. it's running asp.net. I'm outta here.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:30 PM by Brian Downey

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

I never heard of Firefox until this blog.

I installed it and like it better than Internet Explorer now.

Thanks for the tip guys. I'll make sure to tell everyone about Firefox now.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:30 PM by Keith

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

4 Words - Lesser Of Two Evils

At least you have to actively choose to install things with Firefox, instead of bugs in IE allowing anyone to install things
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:30 PM by Rob Davy

# How can I trust IE/Microsoft?

When its filled with ridiculous bugs that MS admits that it will not fix? When simply opening up the home page of some Internet sites automatically installs spyware? When you can download, install, and RUN a virus, merely by sliding a scrollbar?
I'm sorry, I'm not drinking your Koolaid, and less and less people are these days, thank $DEITY.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:31 PM by Gothmolly

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

How can I trust Firefox? Because it came with SUSE 9.2.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:33 PM by Colin Day

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Face it..all your arguments against FireFox have been bashed by evidence show by the people who have posted above. <br> <br>IE has not been secure for a long time, and the security threats keep on piling up. When FireFox came out, Microsoft came out with the huge SP2, which made IE a little better with its pop up blocker, but still it is the worst browser you can have period. <br> <br>The Mozilla team has worked hard to correct any of the small number of bugs that exist on FireFox. It is updated periodically (Heck, you can get nightly snapshots!) and is very secure. It is also secure, because it is open source (download the source, read it- if you feel it is secure, compile and run it!!). <br> <br>Besides the security issue, FireFox is the Best browser that i have seen (features, ability to customize,etc..). <br> <br>Microsoft is a company that loves to make something and then charge everyone a lot of money for it and then not update it in the least and then flame another product for being better instead of actually doing something to fix the problem (Please-dont tell me about the new pop up blocker- so lame, it could have been coded years ago..Oh wait..there already have been pop up blockers made by people years ago because it was a problem..) <br> <br>FireFox is a much better product in every way than Internet Explorer. <br> <br>BTW, I am writing this from inside Firefox. ;)
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:33 PM by AJ

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

I don't think this article is going to fool anyone into believing Firefox is somehow less secure or less prone to spyware than IE. The simply fact remains, [b]despite these cosmetic shortcomings, terrible design decisions in IE are the reason it has so many security woes[/b] and most people savvy enough tor ead this article will know that. <br> <br>Several of your points amount to the same thing. So, you download firefox from university servers? You don't know whether you can trust the executable? This can all be solved by verifying that the executable matches a secure hash. This would be a sufficient condition to determine the executable you downloaded is kosher. <br> <br>You talk about how IE only allows signed ActiveX apps to be installed. Well, let's hope no badguys can get signed ActiveX controls. Let's hope no bad guys get signed ActiveX controls, because there would be no reason not to trust them, right? Firefox doesn't install activeX controls at all, so I guess that point, which you brought up, would be a score for everyone's favorite browser. <br> <br>You also mentioned that you don't like how firefox will not allow you to execute files right from within the browser. This is what they call a 'good design decision'. You know, the kind of things Microsoft learned a little bit about before they released XP's service pack 2. The idea behind this is that even if Firefox is tricked into downloading spyware, as IE often is, it [b]cannot[/b] execute that software from within the browser, like IE commonly does, but at best the automated process allows you to download it. <br> <br>Then, the user, who was unaware that their browser downloaded software and attempted to install it (IE would've succeeded, FF would've failed) would have to track down that file and decide to run it themselves. <br> <br>Now before you talk about how unlikely drive-by spyware installations are, know that they happen in IE more than you want to believe. The program Cool Web Search, for instance, has been known to have drive-by installations from some sites (taking advantage of IE security holes). This program is particularly malicious and particularly hard to get rid of as Cool Web Shredder, the piece of anti-spyware specifically written to get rid of Cool Web Search, often fails. <br> <br>You have to remember: you cannot trust bad guys not to do anything. If there exist known exploits in IE, as there do, then they'll try to take advantage of them. If the only layer of security IE sports is, &quot;Hey, look, we only trust signed software by default&quot; then I'm a little afraid you're in for a world of hurt. Haven't you learned anything? <br> <br>I don't do my work in the Windows world myself, and all of my downloads come from a trusted server (I emerge my software from a public mirror that I maintain), but as far as my family is concerned: they all run Firefox. And why? Because I hate working with Windows and I hate 'fixing' Windows installations.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:33 PM by Jay

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

This is some of the best FUD that I've read... Kudos!!!
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:33 PM by Alex Birch

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

I've used Firefox since .7 and haven't touched IE since. I've never had my computer run so smoothly since I got rid of Microsoft's web browser. You knew you could get your copy of Firefox from the source but you you already knew where you could get a illegitimate copy from somewhere else. Which you knew you wouldn't install correctly. You are not dumb, so don't act like we are. People would have more respect for Microsoft if your company would stop spreading half-truths and misconceptions.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:34 PM by Jerry

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

It is for this very same reason that Microsoft suffers from improper security implementations - Their employees do not understand that simply signing code with "Verisign" certificate does not mean you should trust it. What the heck? If I had money I could simply buy Verisign certificate and sign some piece of code which erases the end user's hard drive. Even Microsoft signs it's own code - which has flaws which are exploited time and again to screw end users. Why should I trust the Microsoft signed code then?
Thank you - we do not need your flawed certificates and signed code - We trust Mozilla.org more than Microsoft - for they aren't after my money.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:35 PM by DoesnMatter

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Simple. To borrow a phrase from the X-Files, "Trust no one".

That being said, I have no reason *not* to trust Firefox at the moment. It's been good to me, hasn't misbehaved, and "appears" to be relatively secure.

On the other hand, Internet Explorer and Microsoft in general have abused my trust on numerous occasions - viruses, security flaw after security flaw, odd behavior / instability, etc. So despite all the Verisign certificates in the world that Microsoft might own, I will never trust IE again.

Monday, December 20, 2004 6:36 PM by Mike K.

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

There's only one reason I don't use IE anymore at home. SPYWARE. Take your fully patched IE and browse over to Newgrounds.com (where the best flash is). If you're using IE, your computer just got owned.

Microsoft can come up with security policies that keep me from being a stupid user. Their security policies don't mean jack when a banner ad can hijack my machine.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:36 PM by Greg

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

The simple answer to the question is: by being careful. Download from a trusted server.
<P>The problem of course is that you have no such option with IE. All IE distribution, signed or not, is insecure because I have no way of checking the code, nor can I take it to anyone who can. I have to trust Microsoft, one of the worst programming companies in the world with a two decade record of sloppy workmanship, dishonesty and apathy towards its users.

<P>The writer says that Mozilla has had "its share of security problem (as has IE)" but quickly skips on hoping that, as is MS policy, the reader will treat all insecurities as equal. Of course, the truth is thet IE flaws regularly allow total and easy compromise of the user's machine, while Moz has only had a handful of such massive breaches. The combination of IE and Outlook has brought many an IT, indeed many an entire company, to its knees for days on end. The one time I was in British Telecom Headquarters there were notices up everywhere telling the staff not to even open their email as an IE/Outlook virus was in the system, and had been for two days at that point. BT have huge resoruces and are not in the habit of downloading their IE updates from Warez sites! Did that help them? No. Did it recover any of the hundreds of thousands of pounds in lost productivity? No. They trusted Microsoft and they got burned.

<P>Who cares if that sort of work is signed or not? Signitures are not a panacea. IE is and always will be a third-rate backdoor to your hard drive because it is badly designed and badly programmed (just how hard is it to implement PNG anyway? 8 Years hard?!) and no one is doing anything about it.

<P>By the way, I use Opera - it's faster than Firefox. I download it from the company site. The point is not so much the server, it's that I trust the company behind it, just as I trust the programmers behind Firefox.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:36 PM by Thomas Worthington

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Verisign can also sign for spyware (excuse me, adware) programs, such as gator and bonzaibuddy. There is no reason to trust a program with a verisign certificate more than one without one.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:36 PM by siroxo

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

It looks as if Microsoft put one of their cronies to start a flame war -- poor guy. How much are they paying you to take a hit for the team?

gimp.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:36 PM by Sabu

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Seriously, the authenticode system and signing is waste of time.

The vast majority of users don't actually care whether the thing they are downloading is signed - they are easily confused by just another technical nicety. You wouldn't believe how frequently I have to clean users machines from malicious software even when the user has a choice.

I'm sure a malicious person could put a web link which would say "click on the button to have your credit card stolen" and people would still click on it, just because they can.

Note this does not make FireFox better than IE, it just makes the whole argument spurious. The real issue is the lack of choice in any browser when things happen without user knowledge, either by bad design, or bad coding leading to exploits.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:37 PM by Lucas

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

I have used Firefox and IE, in fact on my main computer I use IE all the time. I have no issues w/ spyware and malware, I browse sites I know are not sending me stuff and I keep Spybo Search & Destory up to date, schedule Virus Scans and Updates and don't have an issue.
I hate having to install things like flash or some other extension to get what I want when I want it. Sometimes I just want to browse one site and not have to worry I have everything configured correctly.

What makes Firefox the best browser? From everything I read, its just because it's popular w/ people on Slashdot
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:37 PM by Jonathan

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

sychophants, pull your heads out of bill gate's ass and get some fresh air then maybe you will think clearly again...

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame38.html
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:38 PM by dev null

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Hehe funny, I must had installed Firefox twenty times and I never saw a 7zip or an empty dialog box, anyway keep your IE and I will keep using Firefox....

Funny to see MS scarry like this, beware the Google Sand man gonna get ya!
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:38 PM by P00r

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

That was surprisingly long for derived bullshit.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:38 PM by Alex

# Techindepth.com | The Latest In Technology

Techindepth.com | The Latest In Technology
Monday, December 20, 2004 9:38 PM by TrackBack

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

I think a better question is how can I trust Microsoft. Just because a company pays for "signed certificates" doesn't imply they are "trustworthy" or that the products can be trusted. MS has demonstrated that very clearly.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:38 PM by rolf

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

firefox uses mirrors because they arent microsoft. They havent been overcharging customers for 20 years to be able to have bottomless bank accounts... since they have had 11 million downloads, they need some means of bandwidth and infrastructure to support that.


Obviously their lack of "overcharging end users" renders them less likely to "be able to spend millions" on the "systems" required to facilitate 11 million downloads.


Also, firefox is forced to integrate with microsofts "awesome" operating system.... clearly, that wouldnt have anything to do with any errors.. It doesnt run flawlessly on linux distributions or anything.

sarcasm intended
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:39 PM by vanberge

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

First of all, I went to the advertised www.getfirefox.com, and was redirected to the real page at www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/.



Funny thing when i went to http://windows.com i got redirected to
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/default.mspx

Should Microsoft also not be trusted
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:40 PM by /. guest

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

I've installed Firefox at least 20 times on friends pcs - usually after I've had to cleanup the mess from Windows XP SP1 and IE. Never once have I encountered any of the problems you describe.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:40 PM by Kevin

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

You don't trust "ip addresses", but you trust "domain names"? Do you know that one is just a symbolic name for the other?

Do you realize that trust has very many levels, and that Microsoft's problems are at the most fundamental - that the developers and management at Microsoft are completely untrusted? Their skills at making secure software are completely untrusted and unbelieved. No matter how many times Microsoft code is signed, the signature just tells us that we can be sure that the software is insecure.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:40 PM by gees

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Is it only me or this is a lame excuse about "digital certificates"...

Hey!! not everything is digital certificates, 999.99% is also the DESIGN OF THE PROGRAM.. IE is INSECURE BY DESIGN..

So dont try to cover this holes with a bunch of crap about I DON'T TRUST FIREFOX..

Why dont you and the zillions of programmers @ microsoft try to do something good and redesign IE from scratch ?

That will break like 10000000 things right ?

So lets keep insecure and continue selling Office, the real cash cow.

Microsoft dont care about IE or security or stuff, they care about PROFIT!

Monday, December 20, 2004 6:40 PM by Adrian de los Santos.

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

"This page doesnt even render correctly in Firefox. Half the article is scrolled way down - you wouldnt even know it is there!! what the..... "

Are you really surprised? This is a Microsoft page. Those pages are designed exclusively for IE. Remember the MSN home page debacle with Opera a few years ago?
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:40 PM by Math

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

To each his own. I think you pose a lot of good arguments. However, when I originally switched to FireFox I did so because of 2 features. Tabbed browsing and Pop-up blocking.

Tabbed browsing is simply amazing, the first time I saw it I was shocked neither myself nor anyone else had thought of this sooner. It made (makes) so much sense. Right now, as I sit here, I have 4 tabs open in FireFox. To accomplish the same thing I would need 4 separate windows with IE. Being an IT person, I already have about 6 separate windows running, why do I need 4 more added to the already cluttered taskbar?

I'm not going to touch the pop-up issue, I think we all know and agree on that. Thankfully, IE6 has this (I think, haven't used IE6 much since I went to FF).

Another thing that I haven't seen mentioned. FireFox is available on a variety of platforms AND works on all of them with relatively little difference. My place of work (print shop) has quite a few Macs, as well as a few UNIX boxes that I use (2 FreeBSD boxes, one live, one development, and a laptop, also FreeBSD, sitting here right now) and no matter where I go: Windows, OSX, UNIX, Linux, FireFox looks the same everywhere. I can even share my bookmarks easily! Out of all of those, IE only works on Windows and OSX. I've tried using it on OSX and frankly there are a lot of instances where it just doesn't display things correctly. Let alone the fact it displays things DIFFERENTLY from the Windows version. What's that about?

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You seem intelligent enough to make your own decisions; you even took the time to try FireFox. However, what I will say is that your entry, in my opinion is nothing more than obnoxious slander, and quite honestly, hypocrisy. If you were expecting FireFox to be without fault, you were one naive developer. Every program has had its faults. The big question is how long will it take the Mozilla team to rectify those mistakes? Then let's compare to how long it will take Internet Explorer to become "safe." As I see it, IE has had 6 major versions, countless minor versions, and we're still seeing bug after bug. FireFox had its first major release, and you've already condemned it.

If you want something that hits a little closer to home, let’s face the fact that after one major release FireFox has already seized up a sizable chunk of the browser market. Even if it doesn’t work right, crashes five times a day and has to have 2 service packs, you know what, it will still be ahead of Windows 98, or Windows 2000. Has 2003 had a service pack yet? It’s been out a year, I imagine it’d about due for one.
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:42 PM by Ryan Sommers

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

Hehe, this blog is M$ BS all over, i have never had trouble or suspicion obtaining and getting firefox, and i DO know better :P
Monday, December 20, 2004 6:44 PM by CheapAlert

# re: How can I trust Firefox?

I see, and agree, with most of what you have said about the process with Firefox, but I have a big issue with the "many criticisms of Internet Explorer".

The big criticism isn't that people are fooled into fooled into downloading spyware or adware - it's that some site have the ad/spyware install without users even knowing. There is no prompt, there is no cert auth, an ActiveX control does it for them.

Granted IE bocks these by default, but many people change their settings (not knowing what they are doing) and open themselves up for the problem(s).

There is no "fooling" going on, it's a combo of uninformed users and usability issues in the software.
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