TR1 Slide Decks

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BioSensorAB » TR1 Slide Decks — Fri, 22 Feb 2008 23:25:01 GMT

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re: TR1 Slide Decks

Sohail — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 03:21:26 GMT

Please tell me that you were presenting this to C# developers and not C++ developers. Anyone who needs an introduction to these concepts should be smacked upside the head! All these "additions" have been around for years in Boost.

re: TR1 Slide Decks

Stephan T. Lavavej [MSFT] — Sat, 23 Feb 2008 03:51:08 GMT

Not all professional C++ programmers have the opportunity to use Boost at work, nor do all of them choose to spend their free time, as I do, using Boost at home.

Additionally, these slides can be useful even to Boost-experienced programmers. For example:

1. Our shared_ptr allocator support is a C++0x feature, backported to VC9 TR1 (and Boost 1.35, which isn't out yet).

2. Understanding shared_ptr's internal representation is useful to get a feel for how it behaves.

3. It's important to know where Boost differs from TR1. Boost.Regex's grammar contains stuff that TR1 doesn't (for example \< and \>). Also, Boost.Regex supports some function calls that TR1 doesn't (see regex slide 28; I filed a Library Issue about that).

4. Boost's documentation is very good, but even users of Boost.Regex might not be familiar with regex_iterator and regex_token_iterator; my slides provide a useful overview of what they do.

Even the STL is unfamiliar to some professional C++ programmers; the best way to deal with this is education.

Stephan T. Lavavej, Visual C++ Libraries Developer

re: TR1 Slide Decks

DaveG — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 00:31:43 GMT

Great job Stephan. Thanks for posting this.

re: TR1 Slide Decks

SvenC — Sun, 24 Feb 2008 17:49:38 GMT

Hi Stephan,

it is so silent about MFCNext and TR1. Do you have any information about the release date?

I would like to start using the beta but unfortunately my VS 2008 Team System Developer is not supported. The beta installs only on Professional and Team Suite.

Regards,

Sven

re: TR1 Slide Decks

Stephan T. Lavavej [MSFT] — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 05:59:41 GMT

[SvenC]

> it is so silent about MFCNext and TR1.

That's what this post is for! :-)

> Do you have any information about the release date?

As we mentioned in http://blogs.msdn.com/vcblog/archive/2007/11/09/announcing-a-major-mfc-update-plus-tr1-support.aspx , the Feature Pack will be finalized in Q1 CY 2008, so you can expect to be able to download it soon.

> I would like to start using the beta but

> unfortunately my VS 2008 Team System Developer is

> not supported. The beta installs only on

> Professional and Team Suite.

That's a known bug - one of those things that betas are good for flushing out. While it's unfortunate that the beta wouldn't install on some common SKUs (causing lots of frustration), the good news is that the final version will install on all non-Express SKUs as we originally intended.

Thanks,

Stephan T. Lavavej, Visual C++ Libraries Developer

re: TR1 Slide Decks

alones — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 07:24:17 GMT

Good job!

I'm interested in C++ and TR1. I think that due to such efforts as you are doing your c++ library is getting more powerful debugging features and robustness following C++ standard.

Anyway, to tell an expected defect I guess I write his comment.

Already I wrote a post regarding the defect in MSDN forum (Visual C++ Language)

http://forums.microsoft.com/MSDN/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=2887793&SiteID=1

As you know, many violations of the C++ standard in VC6.0 has been fixed from VC8.0 (or 7.0) and it make developers happy in their life.

I'd like you to look over above article. And if it is not your job or you are busy, could you tell me a person in charge?

A few slide decks that may be of interest (C++ TR1)

Granville Barnett — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 17:17:34 GMT

I missed this but last Friday the VC blog guys put up some slide decks on the "new" stuff in

re: TR1 Slide Decks

Stephan T. Lavavej [MSFT] — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 17:46:35 GMT

[alones]

> I'd like you to look over above article.

I've posted a reply to that thread. To summarize: Indeed, VC8 and above accepted that code, while VC7.1 and below rejected it, but this is not a library bug. Instead, it's a consequence of VC8's introduction of iterator checking and iterator debugging, which made vector<T>::iterator into a class type (instead of T *). Your code triggers undefined behavior.

Thanks,

Stephan T. Lavavej, Visual C++ Libraries Developer

re: TR1 Slide Decks

alones — Mon, 25 Feb 2008 19:50:55 GMT

Yes, right. I have just checked it and found out the reason as you answer through debugging with VC8.0.

As you answer, in case of VC6 vector<T>::iterator is a T*. But in case of VC8 it is a class and the class has operator++ and --.

So, my failure to notice makes this thing.

But I think that to such developer like me the difference of polices between VC6 and VC8 can make a little confusion.

Anyway thanks a lot for your kindly answering with good explanation in MSDN forum.

Gidae Yeo (in Korea)

Channel 9: Stephan T. Lavavej: Digging into C++ Technical Report 1 (TR1)

Visual C++ Team Blog — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 00:33:20 GMT

Hello Recently we shipped a beta of our MFC/TR1 Feature Pack that, naturally enough, included a large

Channel 9: Stephan T. Lavavej: Digging into C++ Technical Report 1 (TR1)

Noticias externas — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 01:23:38 GMT

Hello Recently we shipped a beta of our MFC/TR1 Feature Pack that, naturally enough, included a large

re: TR1 Slide Decks

Allan Gibbs — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 02:55:59 GMT

> Our shared_ptr allocator support is

> a C++0x feature, backported to VC9

> TR1 (and Boost 1.35, which isn't out

> yet).

And neither is C++0x.

I am still disappointed that MS is implementing a non-finalized standard before completing existing decade old standards. Until existing standards fully implemented, your product is simply non-conformant.

One example: in the last few years, I have *inherited* an increasing amount of code utilizing export. I would like to develop with VS, but since you do not support this standard feature, I am forced to use other compilers. Yeah, yeah, I know: "nobody needs export". Regardless, it is being used increasingly and I can not (and am usually not allowed to) rewrite all of the code.

re: TR1 Slide Decks

V12M — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 03:18:33 GMT

> Hi, I'm Stephan, the Visual C++ Libraries Developer working on TR1.

You're *the* only developer working on TR1?

re: TR1 Slide Decks

to_be_defined — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 11:29:59 GMT

I wonder if all those "export" requests are trolls...

Implementing export is very difficult and a waste of time (as the only team that has ever done it admits).

Considering that only EDG-based compilers support it, it is naive to try and use export and then expect to compile on any other compiler.

By the way, I know this is Microsoft, but making the attachments available as PDF would be nice; I don't have Office 2007 or the Office viewers installed.

re: TR1 Slide Decks

Stephan T. Lavavej [MSFT] — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 12:03:46 GMT

[V12M]

> You're *the* only developer working on TR1?

Within Microsoft, yes.

To clarify:

* We licensed Dinkumware's TR1 implementation, and (as I explained in a previous VCBlog post) they're responsible for implementing the majority of fixes to it. I'm acting as a hybrid developer/reviewer/whitebox tester.

* My manager, Ale Contenti (VC Libraries and IDE dev lead) also reviews Dinkumware's and my checkins, but I'm the "boots on the ground", so to speak.

* The TR1 "feature crew" includes non-developers: tester Rob Huyett, program manager Ayman Shoukry, documentation writer Jim Vance, etc.

So, I'm not locked in a closet somewhere, slaving away over TR1 by myself.

[to_be_defined]

> By the way, I know this is Microsoft, but making

> the attachments available as PDF would be nice; I

> don't have Office 2007 or the Office viewers

> installed.

The PowerPoint Viewer 2007 is freely available (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?familyid=048dc840-14e1-467d-8dca-19d2a8fd7485&displaylang=en ). (I haven't used it, as I have Office 2007 at work and home, but apparently it works quite well).

As for the lack of PDF - I simply hadn't installed the Save As PDF add-in. If you really want PDF versions, E-mail me (stl@microsoft.com) and I'll get the add-in and create PDFs for you. (I don't know if VCBlog attachments can be updated - there's definitely a one-attachment-per-post limitation, so I'd rather not struggle with that.)

Thanks,

Stephan T. Lavavej, Visual C++ Libraries Developer

re: TR1 Slide Decks

Stephan T. Lavavej [MSFT] — Tue, 26 Feb 2008 12:39:00 GMT

Oh, and I almost forgot - other VC Libraries devs are working on the Feature Pack packaging, making sure that it installs on all SKUs, uninstalls cleanly, etc.

Stephan T. Lavavej, Visual C++ Libraries Developer

re: TR1 Slide Decks

Mainer — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 04:26:26 GMT

to_be_defined wrote:

> Implementing export is very difficult and a waste of time (as the only team that has ever done it admits).

Difficult: apparently. However, it should not take a decade or more to implement. If Microsoft developers are not up to the task, then perhaps software development is not the right industry for them.

Waste: perhaps; nevertheless, people are using it. I often think that about roughly 10-15% of the features in the C++ standard are a waste. But I do not argue for them to be removed after the fact.

>Considering that only EDG-based compilers support it, it is naive to try and use export and then expect to compile on any other compiler.

Your logic and argument is naive. The standard exists solely to ensure interoperability between various compilers. Export IS part of the C++ standard and has been for a DECADE now. There were attempts to remove it and the standards committee rejected them.

I am in a similar situation as the earlier poster: a number of my clients are using export which forces me to drop VC++ even though it is my favorite compiler. Thus, with the exception of my own personal projects, I doubt that I will be able to take advantage of the work being done on TR1, at least Microsoft's implementation of it.

export

to_be_defined — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 10:43:16 GMT

Stephan> Interesting presentations; I was able to install the viewer.

Mainer> Implementing export took 1.5 years of design + 2 man years of coding (according to EDG). Here's the advice EDG gives about implementing export: "Don't.".

The main reason it was kept in the standard is the considerable amount of time EDG spent implementing it; it would have been unfair to remove it.

re: TR1 Slide Decks

Mainer — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 11:24:45 GMT

to_be_defined,

> 1.5 years of design

A lot of that time was spent seeking clarification on initially unspecified issues with interactions with subsystems. Those issues have since been resolved and need not be repeated.

> 2 man years of coding

That sounds reasonable. There is a new release of VC++ roughly every 2-4 years (1998, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2007).

Even assuming the worst four years and two people, MS should have been able to implement export at least twice in the last decade. Also note that Microsoft has far more resources available to their disposal than EDG, and the design time should not be as long since the above issues have been clarified.

> The main reason it was kept in the standard is the considerable amount of time EDG spent implementing it; it would have been unfair to remove it.

Do you have a resource for that statement? If EDG opposed ("Don't") export, then fairness is hardly very important.

Here are the actual minutes:

http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2003/n1459.html

There was more than three times the support for keeping export than removing it.

"Remove export: 8"

"Leave in export: 28"

Personally, I neither like nor dislike export; I'd say that I am neutral. However, I have customer code that uses it and need to compile it as is. That pretty much eliminates VC++ as an option.

re: TR1 Slide Decks

ikk — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 20:03:56 GMT

Wow, look at what i have found (the link points to a google groups search):

http://groups.google.com/groups/search?q=c%2B%2B+can%27t+afford+export+debunked&qt_s=Search

"Can't afford export" was debunked! :-O

Too bad i hadn't found this earlier. I that thread, Daveed Vandevoorde states that the claim that export is underspecified is "a serious exageration."

Until today, I thought that the article "Why we can't afford export" was a good reference about the problems with export. Now i am not sure anymore...

Besides Comeau, is there any other compiler with export? (other EDG-based compilers, i mean... becaus non-EDG compilers certainly don't support export)

re: TR1 Slide Decks

Stephan T. Lavavej [MSFT] — Fri, 29 Feb 2008 21:46:31 GMT

[ikk]

> Daveed Vandevoorde states that the claim that

> export is underspecified is "a serious exageration."

Vandevoorde is an expert - but the experts disagree. I don't consider Sutter's paper to have been "refuted".

Most important are two words: opportunity cost.

Stephan T. Lavavej, Visual C++ Libraries Developer

re: TR1 Slide Decks

Cannot believe it.. — Sat, 01 Mar 2008 19:47:48 GMT

This 'export' freak really needs to go and get some life out there, or buy EDG and be over it.

Frankly, whoever is your manager, and all those .NET PM managers are to blame as much, they should be taken out and beaten by an oakwood stick.

Putting one man to do TR1 just shows how far behind Linux and Google infrastructure MS will be once it gains adoption one of these years.

Someone over there needs a good GC and LINQ invention slapping and some proper Bjarne lectures in metaprogramming and better than half-decent support for value-type generics.

Oh, I forget, they are all mass market architects.. Delphi delegates bloatware style.

re: TR1 Slide Decks

Michael P. — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 02:55:42 GMT

A colleague pointed me to this thread. I was a long-time user of Visual C++. It's a very productive environment. Unfortunately, I am unable to use it anymore. Like some of the people above me, several of my long-term clients use export and I have had to abandon VC++ for more compliant compilers. I respect that Microsoft may have other priorities beside the standard; however, it sure would be nice to do my daily work again someday with VC++.

re: TR1 Slide Decks

ikk — Mon, 03 Mar 2008 15:23:28 GMT

"""I have had to abandon VC++ for more compliant compilers."""

Which ones? Last time i checked it out, only Comeau supported it. Maybe the Intel compiler also supports export since it is EDG-based. Is there anything i am missing?

re: TR1 Slide Decks

Stephan T. Lavavej [MSFT] — Tue, 04 Mar 2008 06:00:16 GMT

[Cannot believe it..]

> Putting one man to do TR1

Does "20% of the VC Libraries developers" sound more impressive?

> just shows how far behind Linux and Google

> infrastructure MS will be once it gains

> adoption one of these years.

Linux is a compiler? Google ships a compiler?

GCC, on the other hand, is a compiler. 4.2 has partial TR1 support, but you need the not-yet-released 4.3 for <regex>.

[ikk]

> Is there anything i am missing?

GCC doesn't support export (and although I don't follow their development closely like when I was in college, they don't appear to be moving towards it at all).

Code using export may be theoretically-portable, but it is not actually-portable to the Big Dog compilers, VC and GCC. (Market share numbers would be fascinating - but my understanding is that VC is the most widely used Windows-targeting compiler, just as GCC is the most widely used Unix-targeting compiler.)

Stephan T. Lavavej, Visual C++ Libraries Developer

re: TR1 Slide Decks

LM — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 10:16:24 GMT

STL, I'm glad to see you've landed on the VC++ team. Keep up the good fight.

On export, I can't imagine they're anything but trolls. Comeau and recent versions of C++ Builder support it, sure, but lets face it -- the interaction of ADL and export presents profound difficulties and (probably) demands that exported templates contain almost as much information as the source.

re: TR1 Slide Decks

Troll — Mon, 10 Mar 2008 03:23:56 GMT

Just change your name to Eric Xavier Paul Othello Robert Trudeau and ship the new compiler from your new e-mail address.

re: TR1 Slide Decks

PJK — Thu, 13 Mar 2008 07:19:33 GMT

LM wrote:

> the interaction of ADL and export presents profound difficulties and (probably) demands that exported templates contain almost as much information as the source.

Fear mongering aside, all of the above is entirely immaterial. As per the decade old standard, the compiler just needs to compile standard code. VC++ does not do that with respect to export.

re: TR1 Slide Decks

user — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 00:51:06 GMT

Plz someone supply slides in pdf format or .ppt format. I don't have windows sry for bugging you in an msdn blog, but as m$ claims for interoperability I will ask for those pdfs too, they sound interesting :)

re: TR1 Slide Decks

Stephan T. Lavavej [MSFT] — Fri, 14 Mar 2008 04:31:03 GMT

You can search for online PPTX to PDF converters (I easily found one, although I haven't used it), or you can E-mail me at stl@microsoft.com - although I don't know if I can mail a 26.4 MB .tar.bz2 file.

Stephan T. Lavavej, Visual C++ Libraries Developer

re: TR1 Slide Decks

vcblog — Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:34:44 GMT

Stephan T. Lavavej on Channel 9 - on C++ Technical Report 1 (TR1)

Hello

In case you missed it, Charles Torre (Channel 9) recently visited with Stephan and discussed what we are providing and what VC++ developers can gain by using TR1 in our VS2008 Feature Pack. We hope you enjoy the video! http://channel9.msdn.com/Showpost.aspx?postid=385821

Thanks

Damien

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