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The Emperor Has No Close

I’ve done blog entries on compaction threads, memory consumption, difficulties in doing upgrades, voice command not working over bluetooth, and 240x240 screens.  Now I’m going to do one on why the little “X” button on PocketPCs doesn’t close apps.  Am I insane?  Do I like having you people kick me around?  Well, maybe “yes” on the former, but definitely “no” on the latter.  That said, someone needs to explain why we do the things we do, and that someone might as well be me.

So why is it that there’s no easy way to actually close apps on Windows Mobile devices?  Sharpen your pitchforks, collect your torches, sit back, and I’ll tell you.


The monster you want is in the castle down the road…

This won’t reduce the angry name calling, but I’ll say it anyway.  I don’t fully agree with our stance on this.  You’ll notice that I’ve written a lot of little ISV apps for Windows Mobile and its predecessors, and every single one of them has had an “exit” option in one of its menus.  There was a time when we were so hardcore on this “thou shall not exit” stance that we refused to give our stamp of approval to any ISV app that had an exit option.  Even then, I defiantly made my apps close.   Fortunately, we’ve backed off on that stance and now allow people to write apps that close, even though we still don’t make our own official apps do it.  If you’re writing an ISV app and it makes sense to give users the ability to close it, I’m all for you doing so.

Unfortunately, if this hasn’t convinced you to put your pitchforks away, then I’m toast, because I agree with the rest of our stance on this….


How’d we get here?

In the beginning there were Microsoft Handheld PCs and Palm Pilots.  The Handheld PC interface looked a lot like the Desktop PC interface.  It had a desktop where you could drag around icons.  There was a taskbar across the bottom that showed which apps were running.  The apps had separate “iconify” and “close” buttons.  Etc.  On the other hand, the Palm Pilot’s interface wasn’t anything at all like the desktop’s.  And Palm kicked the Handheld PC’s tail up and down the court.
 
When you pour blood, sweat, and tears into product but only sell a few thousand units, you have to take a long hard look at your assumptions.  The most consistent feedback we heard was that the desktop interface wasn’t appropriate for a small handheld device.  So we reconsidered many of the design decisions that drove that desktop-like Handheld PC UI.  Maybe people didn’t want a “desktop” on a device they carried around.  Maybe a “today” screen that quickly showed what you needed to do that day made more sense.  Maybe spending screen real estate on a taskbar didn’t make sense when your screen was a quarter the size of the device you took the idea from.  And, maybe, just maybe, having users close apps wasn’t appropriate on an embedded device with a slow processor and even slower memory.

None of the other embedded and mobile devices of the time made you close your apps.  Palms didn’t do it, cell phones didn’t do it, VCRs didn’t do it, car navigation systems didn’t do it, and game consoles didn’t do it.  There are a couple of good things that you get from doing things this way.  For instance, the system feels faster when you don’t close apps because it takes longer to launch an app than it does to bring an already running one to the foreground.  But what became our philosophical reason for not closing apps was the belief that users shouldn’t need to manage their memory. 


If an app closes in the woods and no one hears it…

The base philosophy, that users shouldn’t need to manage their memory, is pretty hard to argue against.  Come on, tell me that users should be required to manage their own memory.  I dare you.  You can tell me that you can do a better job.  You can tell me that we don’t do a good enough job.  You can tell me that in some cases we do a fine job, but in the cases when we don’t, the world comes to a screeching halt, time goes backwards, and history is rewritten to be somehow more dark and foreboding than it already is.  But you can’t tell me that users should be required to manage their own memory.  That’s like saying that car owners should be required to change their own oil.  I don’t think so.

So, on realizing that users shouldn’t have to manage their memory, we set about doing it for them.  We made our shell watch how much memory was being used and close apps when more was needed.  We made many of our apps remember their state when they were closed so that they could reload it again when they were opened (so users couldn’t really tell that they had ever been shut down).  We taught ISVs how to do the same thing.  And we removed the close box from all of our apps.

By 2000 we had iterated on this a few times and released a product (PocketPC 2000) that started winning both reviews and marketshare.  But there has been resistance to having us manage the memory since we first removed the close buttons.  One of the first ISV apps written was a manager that let users close their apps.  And, variations on that theme are still popular today. 


X marks the spot

One thing we did has been pretty contentious.  Along the way, we got feedback that users didn’t mind letting us manage the memory for them, but they really wanted a way to say, “I’m done with this.  Make it go away.”  So we put a “go away” button in the upper right corner of PocketPCs.  This button just sends the application to the background.  It doesn’t close it.  If the system needs more memory while the app is in the background, it’ll close the app.  But, if the system doesn’t need more memory, the app will stay in RAM and be ready to come back quickly the next time the user needs it. 

Now, in a move that some people consider brilliant and others consider unforgivably stupid, we made the “go away” look like an “X”.  Brilliant because anyone who has ever used Desktop Windows will know that an “X” button in the upper right corner of the window will make the window go away.  Unforgivably stupid because every one of those same people will assume an “X” button in the upper right corner of the window will make the app close.  Whether you think the move is brilliant or stupid is pretty heavily tied to how much you believe that users shouldn’t have to manage their own memory.


And now we’re here

Some people say that we don’t do a good enough job managing memory.  We must agree to some degree because we’ve adjusted or modified the memory management code on just about every release since we added it.  I believe the adjustments have been improvements, and I expect that we’ll keep improving it.

I’ve heard some people say that we’ll never do an acceptable job with our memory management and that we should give up and make the X box close apps.  First, I’ll say that doing so would break all the apps that expect the current behavior.  But, more importantly, there are literally millions of Windows Mobile users who never close apps manually and successfully get their jobs done.  While we’re definitely not doing a perfect job with memory management, we have way too many happy users to claim that our memory management is universally unacceptable.

There’s a reasonably sized (but still tiny minority) group of users who feel that they can do better than the memory manager and want an easier way to take control.  Because there are so many apps that let you close things, some of which are very well integrated, I’m reasonably comfortable saying, “Use one of those apps.”  I know that someone is going to say, “I paid $500 for this device.  I shouldn’t have to pay another $10 just to close my apps,” but we do let you close apps with the Memory control panel.  If you think there should be an easier way to do it, all I can do is point you to the “I’m Just a Feature” entry to explain why a minority view feature is less likely to get implemented than one that most users want. 

Finally, if you’re about to say, “This third party app uses too many resources and I need to be able to stop it,” my answer will be, “If that app really needs to use those resources, then it should have its own close option.” 


Donning hazard suit

So, that’s why the “X” button doesn’t close apps.  You can start calling me names now.

Mike Calligaro

Posted: Thursday, October 05, 2006 3:10 PM by MikeCal
Filed under:

Comments

Mike Dimmick said:

You have to remember that Palm OS actually _does_ close applications when the user switches to a different application. Indeed, there is no way to have multiple applications running, something that actually annoys a lot of programmers.

If all the user's applications were actually coded to play nicely - to stop all extraneous activities when moved into the background, and to free up memory for things that could be easily recalculated, to use small amounts of memory so as not to unnecessarily steal memory from other applications, and to actually respond to the WM_HIBERNATE message by freeing even more memory - then things would be fine. But they're not, so users see their PDAs slow right down as the OS struggles to free up memory. Developers have become used to allocating more space to get denormalized or precalculated data structures, but in fact the CPU is much faster than RAM and it would often be better to simply burn CPU cycles than hog memory. The use of precalculation really dates back to a time when CPU core clocks were slow enough versus RAM cycle time that the lookup was quicker than calculation, but it's just not true any more (I believe the SDRAM clock in most PXA270 devices is something like 1/5th or 1/6th the core speed).

Me? My applications run almost exclusively on handhelds (yes, even Pocket PCs) which are dedicated to my application. As such I can take all of the device's memory, and not worry about my application being moved to the background - we're normally running in full-screen mode with the shell suppressed anyway. To this extent Windows Mobile can be an utter pain because of all the popups and notifications that the OS does, but we're stuck using this inappropriate platform - the rugged handheld device OEMs simply don't offer Windows CE on the full range of their equipment, and the customers often foresee a requirement for some part of the PDA functionality (which usually never materialises).

# October 5, 2006 8:02 PM

Scott said:

I must say, I'm very happy with the way that the app doesn't close completely by using the X.  Admittedly, I would like a menu option to close the app, but I digress.  I like when I hit the X, it goes to the background.  The Start menu with the MRU app list then becomes kind of a task manager so I can swap back and forth between apps.  Admittedly, it isn't alt-tab, but it gets the job done.

Overall, nicely done with it, and I agree with keeping it the way it is.

# October 5, 2006 9:02 PM

Perry said:

You're a brave man, Mike!  :)

Actually, I guess I fall into the camp of users for whom the X button works fine as-is most of the time.  For those times when it doesn't I've got a freeware app to force close applications, so I really have no complaints on that front.

Now don't get me started on the Inbox and Mobile IE...

# October 5, 2006 9:47 PM

Michael Reinhart said:

Nice explanation... thanks.  I've always been a little confused why the X was chosen... I've always thought it should have been a minimize button.

# October 5, 2006 10:40 PM

DavidfGray said:

Well i'm just a user, and i'm amazed that any of this stuff works at all, but i want to thank you for explaining something that no one else that i've ever seen or heard has ever bothered to explain. I'm for choices. I get your drift and i can see reasons on both sides. Now i'll know more what it takes for someone to design something that "plays nice" with the other children.

I'm a car guy and the same stuff goes on there. Some have really annoying aural pop-ups when you don't put your seat belt on fast enough, or you leave your keys in the ignition, or your lights or on, or if you just open your door. All these things are meant to help us, but ya know, somedays and sometimes you just want to decide if you want your hand held every step of the way. So when it comes to my HandHeld, I want choices there too. Thank god there are some really smart makers of add on programs out there.

Thanx again for explaining this all/

# October 5, 2006 11:19 PM

Not Buying It said:

"We made many of our apps remember their state when they were closed so that they could reload it again when they were opened (so users couldn’t really tell that they had ever been shut down)."

Which ones? Mail? No. IE? No. Contacts? No. Windows Media Player? No. Are there any?

If this were true, I might be able to buy into the solution. But as it is, sometimes you press x and come back, you are where you left off because the app didn't get shut down. Sometimes, your state is lost because the app was shut down. You have no way of knowing what will happen when you leave and return to an app.

Then there are the implementation details. Let's say you are listening to a file in WMP. You want to delete it. So you select "stop," press x, then go to the file explorer. You can't delete the file because WMP still has it open. This is a direct result of x not closing the app. Sure, you can play tricks if you know what's going on, like open a different file in WMP, then delete the first file. But this is just as bad, or worse, than being required to manage your own memory.

Users have moaned about this for a long time. Give the people what they want.

# October 5, 2006 11:35 PM

ldrn said:

Well -- it's an explanation, at least. The first third party program I install after a hard reset changes this behavior, but I don't really mind that the default is to minimize. Your target audience isn't me, can't be me, and Microsoft has sunk a lot of money into the market I want only to find it practically doesn't exist.

I wanted the desktop, you see.  

Knowing why makes it easier to understand, and you do a great job explaining the 'why' of all the weird things Windows Mobile does.  You do great PR, if only for the techier users.

# October 6, 2006 1:43 AM

karveira said:

For those of you who want the close button to *really close* the application, there is a program called smclose (developers page http://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA032810/ see last link).

You have only to copy smclose.exe in the Windows\Startup folder so that it is lanched when the device powers on, that's all.

(Or start the program manually as needed)

# October 6, 2006 3:05 AM

John said:

I don't know what's wrong with letting users 'manage' their own memory. They do it just fine on a desktop PC. Closing apps that they know are memory hogs when they no longer need them.

Let's face it, the 'close' button problem on the Pocket PC et al, stems from the fact that the platform was so slow starting apps compared to the Palm platform, so had to keep everything running to give the illusion of speed.

I'm still running an HP Jornada 568 (with WisBar set to close on (X) :-))

John

# October 6, 2006 4:15 AM

George Styles said:

Its not quite as simple as installing a 'fix' program to make apps close properly. The only one Ive found that works and has the functionality I require (ie, X closes app, display list of icons of running apps in title bar for quick recall, have this functionality switched on / off on a program by program basis) is wisbar. That so nearly works, but it breaks the connection icon on my Hermes, so I cannot see the difference between 2.5G and 3G coverage areas. I have to quit wizbar, look at the icon, and re-load wisbar.

Looks like I will be dispointed when WM6 comes out, and it STILL doesnt have the OPTION to behave like this :(

Like someone else said, if it all worked it would be fine, but surely im not the only one who finds my device bogged down and unresponsive / crashed if I open too many apps? also not having icons for running apps (a la wizbar) is unforgivable. If my GPS program is running in the background, why should I delve into the start menu to to sent it a WM_ACTIVATE message? i only have 2-4 apps running at once, there is plenty of room in the title bar for icons.

Please reconsider :)

george

# October 6, 2006 5:30 AM

Mike Edwards said:

From a developers point of view, it was quite annoying to have a blanket "thou shalt not close" instruction that would prevent us from getting approval for the app, and it's good to hear that requirement has gone away.

For an application like ours that makes constant use of a resource that another application might need (a GPS receiver on a COM port) it is absolutely essential that we can close our app (and surrender the port) when the user wants to use the GPS receiver with something else. Of course, that's dealt with in a different way in WM5 with the shared GPS feature, which makes things easier all round.

# October 6, 2006 6:01 AM

Richierich said:

The why's are unimportant, what is important is choice.  For those who want the choice to close/minimise etc, then SPB pocket plus is the way to go! (Or wisbar as stated earlier, or both if you're really keen!!!!)

Thats my piece...

# October 6, 2006 8:42 AM

Neil Jones said:

What I don't like about this = ActiveSync failing to sync documents because they are still open within the WM5 App that I have "closed"

What I do like about this = not having to wait for Voice Command and Pocket Outlook to reload every time I want to use them

# October 6, 2006 8:52 AM

Dave Matthews said:

Isn't the real reason that the "X" button doesn't properly quit applications is that the Windows Mobile Team secretly wishes it was the MacOS Mobile Team? ;-)

# October 6, 2006 9:32 AM

Kieren Smith said:

You are a brave man indeed cross this hazardous minefield, and I know I've uttered a few expletives when discussing what I consider to be the bane of all Windows Mobile users lives!

I fully appreciate your argument for users not being required to manage your memory, but I feel you missed the key corollary, that they MUST be allowed to manage their memory easily and quickly - for many users the system just doesn't do a good enough job to keep things running at a speed they consider acceptable.  When comparing competing device, this becomes critical - users don't care how powerful their device is if it takes 30 seconds to open an app because the system hasn't yet decided there's not enough resources and that it should start closing stuff down.  They want the app now (dammit).

Given the fact that people are used to "x" meaning "close", why not consider using a "-" (similar to the old minimise icon) when you expect an app to go to the background, and "x" when you expect it to close - the application can then be coded to display the appropriate action.  This doesn't change that users (in my experience) prefer apps to close for better overall performance of the device, but would make it a lot clearer going forward as to which action is happening.

# October 6, 2006 9:43 AM

Jesper said:

I don't have a problem with applications being "minimized" (or sent to the background) instead of closing, but I think it's horribly misleading to use the X symbol. Why not a down arrow (minimize) or anything else which users already know means "go away".

Look at your desktop. You've got three icons at the corner of a window, and you know what they mean. The little bar thingy means "go to the little bar thingy at the bottom of my screen, and keep out of my way", while the X means "stop doing everything you're doing, I don't want you around, not even in the background"

I just think it's awfully misleading and inconsistent to use the X symbol for anything other than close.

True, in many cases, mobile apps shouldn't close, but then don't give them a little "close" icon at the corner. Give them something which means "go away" or "minimize".

And that change could be done without breaking existing applications. ;)

You have to keep in mind that whether or not the user *should* manage memory himself, a lot of users expect to do it, or are used to doing it, or think they're doing it.

On my PC, I decide which applications to run, and when. A lot of people bring that same attitude to their PDA, and expect that they're the ones deciding when applications do or do not run, and in that case, the X symbol is just misleading them. Especially in the cases where "your" memory management fails to do the job, it just seems like a sick joke that the user is given the *illusion* of being able to control memory usage, to close apps, but in reality, it's ignored by the system.

# October 6, 2006 11:45 AM

MikeCal said:

Regarding using an X instead of some sort of iconify icon.  I carefully didn't say whether _I_ thought the move was brilliant or stupid.  And I'm going to continue to not say...  (-:

Mike

# October 6, 2006 11:56 AM

jordan Manley - jmanley@meridian-law.co.uk said:

Hi there,

I am happy that someone actually took the time to explain.  

Sadly in real world usage this argument falls to bits completely.  

I know 5 YES 5!!!  Win mobile users who have ditched their phones for Symbian (hssssss)

devices because they never learnt about 3rd party memory managers.

Anyone who uses a windows mobile device as a convergance device, i.e uses it for web, email, MP3 - REQUIRES the ability to close Applications.

If your a corporate user who uses this for push mail with another phone for music and calls, then maybe this is a good idea.  

Are Ms attepting to keep the usage of windows mobile within the realms of the rich and well to do?

The devices at present are simply TOO UNUSABLE.

Who remembers the first HTC Smartphone?

The Canary!

Memory managment issues made this device fall apart.

Even today, I am using a HTC universal, it is simply unable to run its own operating system + other apps and work properly without delays that are unacceptable for a user coming from a Symbian device.

I think that Mikecal is using unbranded windows mobile devices with Firmwares from heaven that we lowly users are not allowed.

Welcome to the real world.

I have had so many problems from unresponsive devices:

XDA 2

HTC magician - branded Tmobile UK

HTC Voyager

HTC canary

HTC (orange E100 whatever it was called)

Now I have the Flagship!  The Universal!

640X480 pixels and 550 MHZ of SLOWNESS.....

All before I put on Vbar or whatever app that was popular at the time.

I beg you Mikecal, give us a break, this is a crock.

# October 6, 2006 12:19 PM

Carlene said:

I wouldn't mind the forced "minimize-X" as opposed to the optional "close-X" if every time I had application issues the first response was not "close out all apps in memory" or worse yet, "soft reset" (since that simply closes and resets all apps anyway).

But I still <3 my WM5.

# October 6, 2006 1:08 PM

igalan said:

First I want to thank Mike Calligaro for the opportunity that he has given to us, users of Windows Mobile devices to express our opinions. I’m new to this blog, although not to Windows Mobile.

I fully understand the explanation about the need to rely memory management to the OS and not to the users. That is the way to go. But there's still a long way ahead: files opened can't be synched, deleted or otherwise used for other programs; programs minimized may not return resources to the OS (most notably memory); programs minimized may keep hardware locked for their use (GPS, for instance); use excessive CPU cycles, etc. So while I understand the decisions I use a task switcher to actually close applications; because the OS isn't helping me enough.

I think that the OS should be more aggressive and be able to free up resources of minimized applications, instead of expecting that the programmers have been careful enough so their applications play nice. The OS should handle all that and provide to the applications the events and interfaces that give them the opportunity to react to those events (WM_HIBERNATE just asks form programs to do so –if I understood this well-, but does not actually do anything if the event hasn’t been programmed). Also I find that most often the single part of the system that uses most memory is the OS itself; frequently I’m running out of memory to launch some program, and nothing is being showed up as running. So the OS should also have some kind of garbage collector and memory “defragmentation”.

If all this worked well, we wouldn't be discussing if there should be an 'X' or '-' or what. All people cares is that they are able to run their programs at an acceptable speed. If that means using a program to close running tasks to regain the lost performance, they will do so.

# October 6, 2006 1:10 PM

Charlie said:

You're a brave man. Here's the thing; if WM did a god job, it would be sort of OK, but in reality it doesn't and it's not. Short and simple.

Second point, asking users to manager their own memory is a red herring. All close functionality is doing is asking users to know when they're finished with task "X". Simple. I also can put dirty clothes in the wash when they get stinky. It's not the same as making my own clothes.

At the very least it should be a minimize button, better yet, both buttons. I remember the Palm vs PPC war, and MS got it's butt kicked for usability things like startup time, and an inappropriate shell interface, not "managing your own memory". Nice try though. :-)

Power to the people.

# October 6, 2006 2:50 PM

Jeff Jackson said:

The reality is that if you don't close programs manually, the device will bog down and crash in only an hour or two of use.  I don't use the close programs feature of SGB Pocket Plus a huge amount.  I usually wait till the device starts slowing down, then start closing things.  I find it necessary to do so several times a day typically.

# October 6, 2006 3:24 PM

MikeCal said:

Jordan, the Canary fell apart because IPSM went pathalogical when there was less than 1M of storage left, and the device only shipped with 7M of storage.  Memory management had nothing to do with it.

igalan, it would be very hard for the OS to forcibly take away memory from applications without shutting them down.  The application wouldn't know that the memory had been removed, and would crash as soon as it tried to use it.

Charlie, Palm kicked the Handheld PC's butt for a ton of reasons.  Time to launch apps was definitely one of them.  If I implied it was the only reason, sorry, I didn't mean to.

Jeff the reality that your devices will bog down and crash within an hour of use is not shared by millions and millions of users. I'm glad that you've found a utility to make your device usable, though.

Mike

# October 6, 2006 6:55 PM

Scott Yost said:

Would it meet everyone's needs if we:

- provided a close button in addition to the existing button and

- provided a minimal task manager in rom on smartphone and pocket pc

Then the existing behavior could still be preserved for most users, but power users would get the ability to kill apps that they know are resource intensive and don't play well.

# October 6, 2006 7:01 PM

Commentator #88289 said:

This is what happens when philosophy dominates over reality.

In your philosophical bubble, sure, it makes sense. The user shouldn't have to manage memory, the OS should do it. Etc. So no real closing (i.e. remove app from memory upon command).

But in reality, as others said - these devices simply aren't robust enough to always deal with multiple apps open in memory at once. They bog down, they get corruptions, they start to suck big time. And the little trip to system->memory etc. is nothing short of annoying.

Stop philosophizing.

Stop competing with Palm (they're dead anyway).

Live in the real world. Make the OS appropriate for the platform. Common sense is more important than eggheaded philosophy and twisted bizarro-world marketing comcepts. I'm just glad apps do exist to make WM5 more sensible. It's just shame they need to exist at all.

And the biggest irony of all - PalmOS DOES exit apps to launch another one. And yet you list PalmOS as one of the reasons you avoided real closing?! WTF?

# October 6, 2006 9:37 PM

Commentator #88289 said:

<i>Would it meet everyone's needs if we:

- provided a close button in addition to the existing button and

- provided a minimal task manager in rom on smartphone and pocket pc

Then the existing behavior could still be preserved for most users, but power users would get the ability to kill apps that they know are resource intensive and don't play well.

</i>

AKA "Minimize" and "Exit." Terms and concepts that EVERY computer user already knows and understands for many years now. Concepts that PPC/WM should've adopted long ago. It's hardly a "power user" feature to offer the abiolity to close an app. Small children can minimize and close apps on PC's without fuss. Future WM customers are not going to have nervous breakdowns because they can close apps... -_-

It's almost frustrating to see WM devs in late 2006 mentioning such ideas as if they were something esoteric and almost pioneering.

But yes - minimize and exit/close - would be ideal. Go for it.

# October 6, 2006 9:47 PM

Commentator #88289 said:

Also - apologies for sounding nasty before.

I've been a PocketPC user and enthusiast since the early days (Casio EM-500 was my 1st, current device is Axim x51v). It's just frustrating how simple things like this still haven't been implemented after so many years.

Thanks for sharing and giving me and others a chance to kick you around. ;)

# October 6, 2006 9:57 PM

Carlene said:

Scycost: Yes. Yes, yes, yes. But then again, yes.

It is hard for me to imagine that the percentage of power users is so low (considering most of us have PPCs *because* we are power users) that yours seems like a novel idea, albeit a good one.

# October 7, 2006 1:02 AM

Matthew said:

scyost: Yes, that's about waht we want. All apps should have the ability to decice if they want minimize, close, or both and the icon(s) should always properly indicate what they will do. Applications that don't specify should show the correct icon for waht will happen when they end (basically, dialog vased show X and close, other show line/arrow/whatever and go background).

The task manager is a great thing. Make it a single key combo or some other simple machanism to bring up. Let us use it to switch and close apps. That's all we all ask, and it'd be perfect with that basic functionality. Refer to the Windows 3.1 window list. Yes really, that thing. It waws ideal, and stealing ctrl-esc for the useless start menu in 95/nt4+ is near criminal.

# October 7, 2006 1:18 AM

yc said:

switch from ppc to nokia os, much easier and winning the mobile war. I do encounter the issue of manually closing problems every few days. It is a pain in the butt...and i give up!

# October 7, 2006 5:04 AM

Harvey said:

If Microsoft was a truely cutomer concentric company (its not) it would give the WM5 "customers" the option of how the little x behaves. Either minimize or close an application. For somewhere around $500.00 I think the "cutomer" should be empowered to make a choice an magaging their own $500.00 dollar memory if the desire.

# October 7, 2006 8:58 AM

Shannon J Hager said:

Every time I get a "not enough memory to save this picture" error, then have to close the camera app, then go to Start > Settings > System > Memory > Running Applications > Close All, I have to wonder if the "majority" of people you refer to are people who don't actually use the product.

Every my phone locks up, reboots or crashes and, on reboot, I am subjected to alarms I have dismissed, lost preferences, lost text messages (!!!) and other irritations because of your choice to store data in the wrong place, I have to wonder if the "majority" of people you refer to are people who don't actually use the product.

And if this "majority" does actually say they don't have these problems, then I have to assume that they either don't use the product, don't recognize the problem, don't understand your questions, don't know how to explain the problems, or simply don't mind the problems.

Because I own quite a few Windows Mobile devices and have worked with MANY more.  I know many people who have Windows Mobile Smartphone and PPC devices.  And I know that it is NOT a minority of people who have these exact same memory issues with PocketPC.

The Windows Mobile Smartphone is (are) the best device(s) I have ever used or owned.  The PocketPC phone NEEDS to learn more from the success (in function, not sales) of those Smartphones.

# October 7, 2006 11:46 AM

Atramhasis said:

Is this true, does Microsoft consider the Close button? Or this this just your idea, MikeCal?

I would say, you should install some of this "realy close" applications (gues why they are so popular?) and look how they do the job and then make the best of it. Not to complicated of course. Maybe like this:

Let the functionality as is, just one hide button, but change the symbol (not "X"). Additionally a context menu (press and hold the hide button) should show a task manager to quickly switch and close applications (like SPB Pocket Plus).

# October 7, 2006 11:50 AM

Shannon J Hager said:

"Would it meet everyone's needs if we:

- provided a close button in addition to the existing button and

- provided a minimal task manager in rom on smartphone and pocket pc"

1. A ( - ) button next to the ( x ) on the PPC would be perfect.  It would be "intuitive" because every single PPC user already knows and expects that and it would solve many of the problems PPC users constantly struggle against.  On the down side, Solitaire would take a little longer to launch the next time a person wants to play it.  I think the pros outweigh the cons.

2. The taskmanager in WinMob Smartphones is tremendously easier to use than on the PocketPC.

PocketPC:

Start (which forces me to use 2 hands!) >

Settings >

System >

Memory >

Running Programs >

Stop All

Smartphone:

click taskmanager icon in the MRU bar on the today screen >

click 7

click okay

At least having the Memory App available to the MRU on PPC would help, putting the MRU on the today screen would be even better.

# October 7, 2006 12:27 PM

Kazi said:

I would not like to attack anybody, just commenting the above argumet. I'm a very happy HTC TyTN user (so Windows Mobile 5 user) and a happy developer and very comfortable with Microsoft products. This X button question is not a big problem for me, I installed a 3rd party utility for it and that's all. I would like to comment the argument in silent:

The argument is that "the OS manage the device memory better than the user", but there is an assumption behind this argument: "The applications are well written, and processes manage own memory well", this is an idealistic assumption imo, most applications can't use resources well, I know, I'm a developer :-)

But I agree, an OS can manage its own memory better way than the end user, but this is not 100% true for applications, only in the case, if an application is written 100% well. Is there such like apps? How many?

Thanks for your attention.

# October 7, 2006 7:28 PM

Daniel Schroeder said:

@Mike: In a theoretical, ideal world you'd be right. However, reality is just two blog entries away from yours - a quote from Jason Fuller's September 15th post about Virtual Earth Mobile:

"Make sure you have exited the app before trying to install the new version."

Maybe the issue goes beyond memory managment. Locked files, for example. :-)

Cheers

 Daniel

# October 7, 2006 7:37 PM

Bendigeidfran said:

Applications consume resources not just RAM. For instance an application may keep a lock on a database or file. It may be using a sound/media API while denying another application.

I don't have a MS, but when a media player app is playing sound and you hit "x" does it stop playing?

I think sending the app to the back is fine so long as software behaves as if it is closed.

User are task based, once they finish a task and hit the "x" button - they don't want to see any trace of it. If the OS decides to keep the app in the background as an optimisation then so be it.

in terms of usability. I prefer the OS to manage memory not me.

Consider the user experience of having an application that you know you can run (it worked yesterday), but today you are out of memory.

Having the user select a list of tasks to shut down (not knowing how many will free up enough RAM) is ludicrous.

I think the most pleasing solution involves the OS managing the memory, but also some effort from the app writers to persist state (and only stop persisting state if the user presses the x button).

# October 7, 2006 11:31 PM

chris said:

If the choice is so contentious...why not just make it an option?  Let those of us that want to manage the memory have that option.  

Oh and I believe that everyone SHOULD be required to change their own oil too...at least once.

# October 7, 2006 11:32 PM

Helio Diamant said:

Mike,

I accept the argument that you need this functionality to be like this in order not to break current applications. I also accept that the memory management is improving with new versions.

But then, why not give the user an easier path to close his applications whnever he wants to? Just like every task management tool does: a long click on the X button would open a menu with the running applications, and you could choose between going to one of them or closing one of them, or closing all..... can't MS learn from all the tools that are in the market? Can't they understand that if there is such a demand for these tools, so they are doing something right?

It is the same with other decisions, like the removal of wireless sync with Outlook from Activesync 4.x..... we can accept that there were problems with security. But then this doesn't require completely removing the tool from AS4.... it would be enough to make the default as disabled, make it manageable by corporate server policies, and if free to use by the policy, then give the user the ability to turn it on.

I don't agree that the aligment policy for all features should be "Users are stupid, we don't give them the option". Here is MS's mistake in my point of view.

# October 8, 2006 1:56 AM

Nicolas said:

Hi!

Wouldn't the whole discussion be completely obsolete if all these Pocket PCs had more RAM and flash memory built in?

Many programs have quite a large footprint and how an OS handles RAM and flash memory I actually do not care and guess what, I just want to work with my device..

Looking at my WM5 VPA IV (MDA Pro, iMate JASJAR, HTC Universal) I have ridicilous 25mb free RAM to work with even though it says it has 64mb RAM and 128mb flash memory... that is  a joke and there is where MS could be blamed for.

Selling this OS to a PDA manufacturer should oblige them to build in at least 128mb available RAM and how about 256mb flash memory?

That cannot be the problem?

cheers Nicolas

# October 8, 2006 5:31 AM

Marta de Souza said:

Been using WM5 for a short while and already wondered about this topic.

This is my humble user ideas in this world of experts:

1- Why not make ONLY the preferred(favourite) applications to stay in background and allow us to close all others with an 'x' because we sometimes just want to have a little peep at some applications and want them to go away as fast as we finished looking at that something: a memo, an sms, an email, a topic, a calculation, but we may want our favourite music player or communicator to still run in background.

2- Some sort of shortcut (one-button) access to favourites (whatever they are)?

3- Is that too much to ask from so called experts that look down on us humble users with less brain than a doorknob? Besides, if you really were thinking your users were that thick to think for themselves, the operating system would have to be much, much, much more dummy-user friendly!

4- I miss so much the ability to find/search I have on my PC/laptop! I user it all the time on my other devices. Please bring it to meeeee!

Thanks!

# October 8, 2006 7:51 AM

andy said:

Keep things the same.

Just provide a shortcut button to the Memory screen, e.g. Hold-OK.

I like pressing OK to make things descend to background.  I don't close apps other than single serving system tools such as MemMaid.  I also chose my GPS prog and radio streamer, but I NEED "OK" TO KEEP MINIMIZING THESE THINGS.

Get manufacturers to stop being so cheap about memory -- Problem solved!

andy

# October 8, 2006 8:17 AM

Hal Rottenberg said:

Very nicely written, thanks for the explanation.  I think my main problem is that I visibly see how poorly the memory is managed on my device _every day_.  For example I have this one app which must use a fair amount of RAM because every time I sleep my WM5 phone or run IE--WM closes the first app.  Unfortunately, the dev of that app did not account for this and the "session state" is lost.  Very very annoying, and it's not the only program I've noticed which does not handle this case well.  On top of that, I'll occasionally notice the device slow down to a crawl, look at the free RAM and clear the IE cache or other temp files, and then not only does the device speed up, but I can run more programs simultaneously.  I thought this program memory versus storage memory scenario was killed in WM5 but I can attest that such is not the case.

# October 8, 2006 10:10 AM

Hal Rottenberg said:

Don't add a second button.  Do hold-OK like Andy just suggested.  If you have not seen it before, check out the freeware app Magic Button.  It's the first app I install on a WM device.  You would do well to emulate it.

http://www.trancreative.com/mb.aspx

# October 8, 2006 10:29 AM

Jason Dunn said:

Mike,

You are indeed a brave man to tackle this issue, as it's been a long sore point with end users. I've been watching the platform evolve since 1996, so I've seen everything come and go. I fully understand why the Pocket PC team, coming off the dismal failure of the Palm-sized PC, was so desperate to use every trick in the book to match the speed of the Palm V. Problem is, they let their desperation get in the way of more than a decade of user-interface training that every computer user had been through. "X" means close. "-" means minimize.

The...arrogance of the Windows Mobile team to think that they can re-define a universal UI element like that is stunning. And yes, the MSN Messenger team is equally arrogant for their implementation.

If the "X" were another symbol, it would be clear to the user that the application is not actually being closed. Knowing that, they can act appropriately by going into the control panel and shutting down the apps themselves. I do a bit of consulting and have watched regular users (non-geek types) struggle with this close issue over and over. Trying to delete a file, only to have Windows Mobile Player, the application they THOUGHT they closed, still locking a file. It's just not acceptable that end users are tricked that way.

# October 8, 2006 2:11 PM

Andy said:

What about a tap-hold option? Users tap-hold the X and the program closes, so simple, and everybody's happy.

Think about it, it doesn't use any extra screen real estate, and it doesn't affect users who are happy with the way things are now.  But for those of us who like to and need to manage our own memory... perfect!

Andy

# October 8, 2006 2:19 PM

Zacho said:

Hi Mike,

One other comment I submitted (twice) doesn't seem to get posted. Did I violate any rules with my comment? Sorry if I did.

@ Andy: Tap and hold is much too slow for this feature. An [X] button needs to close, and do it fast.

My biggest complaint with the [x] button on windows mobile is the icon [x] they chose to paint on there. Instead they should have an arrow down or something. I agree with the previous commentor who cited the same confusing functionality on the windows live/msn messenger desktop client. I too find this implementation arrogant.

# October 8, 2006 10:23 PM

Zacho said:

Hi mike, love the arcticle; and I love your guts for sitting down and explaining this to us. Before reading the article I already was aware of the rationale behind that [x] button idea.

I agree with all your writ except one piece:

You said, "doing so would break all the apps that expect the current behavior."

A large number of people install a "really close" extension, any application that becomes broken due to a "really close", already is broken, and generates tech support calls from those people.

One of the most compelling arguments a pro-microsoft guy has is the integrated-ness of all their products and the level at which they support legacy things (software, ideas, etc.) Although the latter has been slipping the last few years. A person who could run windows 95 will be able to learn xp and vista in literally no time at all. This is one of the reasons why sticking to microsoft products pays. Zero learning curve.

# October 8, 2006 10:30 PM

Zacho said:

About 8 years ago, our company started making use of handheld devices for our emplyees' PIM and other information. We would buy the best available - at that time it was on Palm OS. later on, when Pocket PC 2002 was available, somehow realising that microsoft would crush the PDA market within a short time, I started promoting the platform within our company. Most of our personell are fluent windows users and generally smart individuals. Being more on the IT side of things, I spent quite a lot of time helping people convert their Palm OS information to Pocket PC. I get feedback and questions from some 200+ Windows Mobile users.

Mike, to how many people with a windows xp background have you explained why there is an [x] button that does not close? I mean, look at windows xp, [x] is a friend, he's always there, he's reliable, he takes the darn application out to keep you from going insane. if the application does not want to obey, the operating system goes, "this application is rude, misbehaving, what should i do about it?" This [x] feature rudely and promptly shuts down the unwanted application, and ends anything it is busy doing with no warning. It consits of two diagonal lines that cross. It's a "feature" that every single windows 95+ user is used to. Think of 850 million + people. Now... go give all those windows users a windows mobile device and tell them the [x] button (their friend) does not function like the PDA's big brother, the desktop. I can tell you some of those people would injure you with the said device.

You see, it's not that people must have an [x] button. BUT, if it's an [x], by all means, it should function like an [x]. Many, many people think the misleading icon is pathetic. I repeat, many, many people are disgusted with a fake [x] icon. It is a slap in the face for the windows user.

# October 8, 2006 10:31 PM

Zacho said:

About 8 years ago, our company started making use of handheld devices for our emplyees' PIM and other information. We would buy the best available - at that time it was on Palm OS. later on, when Pocket PC 2002 was available, somehow realising that microsoft would crush the PDA market within a short time, I started promoting the platform within our company. Most of our personell are fluent windows users and generally smart individuals. Being more on the IT side of things, I spent quite a lot of time helping people convert their Palm OS information to Pocket PC. I get feedback and questions from some 200+ Windows Mobile users.

Mike, to how many people with a windows xp background have you explained why there is an [x] button that does not close? I mean, look at windows xp, [x] is a friend, he's always there, he's reliable, he takes the darn application out to keep you from going insane. if the application does not want to obey, the operating system goes, "this application is rude, misbehaving, what should i do about it?" This [x] feature rudely and promptly shuts down the unwanted application, and ends anything it is busy doing with no warning. It consits of two diagonal lines that cross. It's a "feature" that every single windows 95+ user is used to. Think of 850 million + people. Now... go give all those windows users a windows mobile device and tell them the [x] button (their friend) does not function like the PDA's big brother, the desktop. I can tell you some of those people would injure you with the said device.

# October 8, 2006 10:32 PM

Zacho said:

I realized my comment was not published because it is too long, I broke it down and submitted it in pieces. Sorry about the duplicates.

# October 8, 2006 10:39 PM

Zacho said:

Here are my humble suggestions:

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE change the icon on the [hide] button to something other than [x].

Placing two buttons in the upper right corner [hide] and [x], would cause unecessary confusion for new users and people who are expecting more of a phone interface.

# October 8, 2006 10:49 PM

Zacho said:

Here are my humble suggestions:

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE change the icon on the [hide] button to something other than [x].

There should be an additional settings page that allows the user to change whether the button in the upper-right corner means [close] or [hide]

Placing two buttons in the upper right corner [hide] and [x], would cause unecessary confusion for new users and people who are expecting more of a phone interface.

# October 8, 2006 10:51 PM

Zacho said:

Placing two buttons in the upper right corner [hide] and [x], would cause unecessary confusion for new

users and people who are expecting more of a phone interface.

If by chance, the Windows Mobile 6.0 "new feature list" includes the above mentioned changes, it would

because many people to smile and say, "they finally used their brains."

How much do you guys listen to feedback?

Do you ever offer user surveys?

Face it, an [x] that does not close is just plain dumb, no matter how you look at it. It's no argument,

it's no question, and everyone knows it except for a few deciscion makers at microsoft. I am willing to

bet they have no decent explanation of why it is an [x] icon, as opposed to an arrow down or something.

# October 8, 2006 11:36 PM

Crash Biker said:

Ok, I'm not an insider, and I'm clearly swimming against the tide here, but here's my idea of why the icon must be an "X".

Once you finish with an app, and hit the X to close it, the OS has the right to stop that application without further warning. As it stands it is not compelled to, but the memory manager could choose to do so at any point for the good of the system. If hitting the X might kill the process and lose the context then X is the best of a difficult set of choices.

If you were to replace the X with a "minimise" icon, the OS would be obliged to keep that context alive unless explicitly shutdown. That is how the desktop OS works and I believe that would make life much harder for most in the restricted resources of a handheld.

I am a deep tech, I have been in handhelds since the original Newton and in MS Handhelds since the Philips Nino and every generation since. I like the way it works now. I like apps having explicit "Exit" options, I wouldn't argue against giving others an "X means die" option in the settings list somewhere but 99% of the time it does exactly what I need.

What disappoints me above is references to the "arrogance" and "..is a crock". I think whatever my feelings about other things in life I'm prepared to accept that the MS dev teams are reasonable people who made this (and other) decisions based on difficult choices and providing the best result to the largest community of users.

I do agree the locked file on sync thing is a nuisance occasionally though. Perhaps a "close all background apps on activesync" option?

Cheers

Chris

# October 9, 2006 4:52 AM

Kram II said:

Thanks for a great article, Mike.

However, I'd like to say that my preference is for all apps to have consistent minimise / close behaviour, right out of the box. Ideally, tap [x] for minimise, tap and hold [x] for really close.

There is a lively 3rd party market for apps to make our devices work this way. Obviously, it is what the customers want.

Please, please, please Microsoft: rethink this one.

KramII

# October 9, 2006 5:55 AM

Günther said:

Hello Mike!

First thank you for writing this article on the history and background of the CLOSE APP button.

Nevertheless I rather disagree:

- It has nothing to do with the question if the user should manage memory or not. You wouldn't say that a user manages memory himself in Windows XP or so when closing an application?! It's always the OS which manages memory.

- Most annoying is the locking problem: A file is locked by a running app in the background and you can't manipulate it.

- And then you sometimes run out of memory and have to manually close apps one after another. And that's called AUTOMATIC memory management?!

- Maybe it was true and meaningful in the past to just put the app into the background but nowadays the OS and UI itself should offer the option of really closing it, together with a builtin task manager/switcher (WisBar-like).

Best regards,

Günther Schöllhammer

# October 9, 2006 8:25 AM

Zacho said:

@ Chris

So you WANT the button to function that way... fine, it's probably best. Probably. I agree, it's not all that bad except for the file locking issue mentioned before. It does need some fine tuning. There should be be a better task manager, etc.

But still, if the button is not a [close] button, it should not have an [x]. It should have something that means, "minimize, but close if memory is short". And arrow or something would suffice. Or even an [x] with an arrow on one of the bottom points. The [x] is simply misleading. The minimize-but-close-if-required is new functionality for windows users, it deserves a new icon. Don't just muddy up the definition of [x] for us.

I agree, there is no reason to start calling names/insults, we can have an educated debate here. And I'm sorry, being one of the offenders myself.

# October 9, 2006 10:38 AM

MikeCal said:

Shannon, you said that you love the Smartphone but dislike the PocketPC.  But the Smartphone doesn't give you an easy way to close apps either. Can you tell me more about what makes you like the Smartphone method but not the PocketPC one?  

Kazi, I don't believe the OS can manage its memory better than the user.  The user has information about what's about to happen (I'm going to use this app again in a minute) that the OS doesn't have.  What I believe is that the user shouldn't NEED to manage his memory.  It's similar to driving a car with an automatic vs manual transmission.  A well driven manual transmission will always outperform an automatic, but most people (myself included) buy automatics. I personally do this because I don't want to have to shift.  I assume other people are similar.

Chris and Helio, as far as we're concerned, the user DOES have the option to use close his apps.  He can either use the built in memory control panel or he can install one of the many available managers.  See the "I'm Just a Feature" entry, but any feature we do means 10 more we don't do.  If we had a choice between enabling something that can't be done by a 3rd party or redoing stuff that 3rd parties already provide, we're generally going to choose the former.  Etc.

Marta, we absolutely do NOT think you're stupid. It's not that we think you're incapable of closing apps.  It's that we think you shouldn't have to.  See the oil change example.

Nicholas and Andy, more memory means more expensive devices.  In the past, more expensive devices have not sold as well as less expensive devices.  When more expensive devices sell better than cheaper ones, OEMs will be happy to put tons of memory in them.

As for Tap and hold on OK, if we added that feature, how would we teach users that it works that way?  Wouldn't most people still assume that X closes and never think to tap and hold to close?  And what about the users who want to minimize but occasionally hold the X too long?  How will they understand why sometimes their music stops playing when they press the X and others times it doesn't?  On the other hand, any user who installs a utility to enable tap and hold X as close will definitely know about it.  

Mike

# October 9, 2006 12:46 PM

Charlie said:

The difference regarding SP vs PPC is that SP makes it very fast to access the memory applet from the MRU list. Not ideal, but it works. Also, SP doesn't promise to have a close function by taunting us with an [X] button.

One major step backwards recently was when recent SP releases seem to eliminate the navigate by number option. Bring it back!

# October 9, 2006 2:14 PM

Bob said:

"As for Tap and hold on OK, if we added that feature, how would we teach users that it works that way? "

Maybe you could add it to the completely useless and annoying cut and paste tutorial that is shown everytime a device is hard reset?

Or, you could do a "tool-tip" pop up the first time a user clicks on the X to inform them of the functionality.

# October 9, 2006 2:49 PM

Kazi said:

Mike, what if WM team add the close feature as an option? For me, it's enough a registry hack for this feature, and I guess, most of the users will not complain UI for this who want to use the X button this way (they know what is registry already). Then this story can be about "how ms listens not only to 99% of customers, but listens to the remaining 1% as well."

"A well driven manual transmission will always outperform an automatic, but most people (myself included) buy automatics. I personally do this because I don't want to have to shift.  I assume other people are similar."

yes, you are right, most people use cars to get to a destination only, but there are people who look at cars in a different way, they like cars, they are fans of cars, and they don't use automatic transmissions. They exist. :-)

# October 9, 2006 5:19 PM

signs said:

Mike,

You say that users should not need to manage memory, but in reality, that is exactly what we are doing. When wm5 slows down to a crawl, the user is forced to go to the memory section and close apps, i.e. MANAGE MEMORY.

And if you think that it’s only the Minority who do this, or feel this annoyance (without knowing what to do about it), then you are completely WRONG. So, the millions of dollars spent on marketing that would say otherwise, well they are simply WRONG. You would best benefit if you get some new marketers, which would give you the real life info.

So, if you all cannot find a way to effectively allow your UI to manage its memory, then put the memory section on the Today screen, and at least give us an easier way SO WE CAN DO IT.

# October 9, 2006 7:50 PM

Zacho said:

what is the chance of the default icon being changed?

to solve the problem of accidential closing w/ tap&hold, simply pop up a task manager menu to give the user a choice of action. This could double as the task manager, if it had a list of the running programs, etc.

# October 9, 2006 9:12 PM

Mokubai said:

Before I start I have to admit that I am slowly coming around to the "Minimise rather than close" philosophy, as it makes better use of the memory on the device and I like all the programs just being *there* when I want them.  My problem is that the (X) is misleading as many others have stated and getting to the memory applet is more painful than it really needs to be.

I was thinking about what you were saying about how to show the tap-and-hold-to-close, and I had exactly the same thought as Bob, that annoying "Here is how you cut and paste an appointment for those of you that couldn't rub two braincells together" screen that shows up after a hard reset would be the perfect place.

As to the automatics vs manual analogy I can only partly agree, when resources like fuel are copious and you don't care about the cost then fine, the "automatic" way is easier and some would say better.  Here in the UK fuel costs more so people are more aware of the added cost of automatics and almost everyone learns to drive in a manual so people are more in control of how the car works (and wastes) right from the start.  We like this added control, and I don't see why we can't have the choice about whether we want our programs to be handled in an analagous manner.

I agree, we should be letting the device make use of the memory to keep programs running but please just give us the option of killing a program quickly (especially activesync), just a small task manager that pops up on a tap-and-hold of the (X) and minimise on a normal tap would do for me.

# October 10, 2006 4:19 AM

Daedalia said:

It is a great concept and yes the software should manage it but if it doesn't do it fairly flawlessly then it is useless and should not emerge past the beta stage. I'm running 2003SE and the memory just drains. Closing the applications fully using wisbar advance delays the need for a reset. It is silly to make a stance like this when you can't demonstrate it's benefits by making it work.

Useability is not a microsoft strength. For example why is the 'X' in the top right hand corner. With many phones running WM, people are using thumb on screen rather than stylus, I'm cramped up trying to play an impossible guitar chord going for the 'X'. Put everything that runs the system in one place and let people choose where that is, It's not that hard to code.

Making users not manage their memory is a fluffy feature, something that is a bonus if you can get it to work. Fact is the speed at which programs load nowadays is very quick anyway.

More effort should be concentrated on making the applications not so thin on the ground with regards to features. I couldn't beleive it took until WM5 to get photo contacts for example.

The ethos should always be intuative useability. At the moment you seem a bit blinkered on the memory management feature.

# October 10, 2006 4:35 AM

MikeCal said:

Kazi, to continue the car metaphor, yes there are definitely people who are really into cars.  One of them works for me, and he races his Lancer on the weekends.  Many car buffs drive manual transmissions and change their own oil and tweak their fuel air ratios, etc.  And most of them have purchased an appropriate set of tools to do this.  If you're that kind of PocketPC user, the appropriate tool you need is a memory manager.  

Signs, you absolutely can manage your own memory.  Just install one of the many available memory managers.  As for us being wrong about the percentage of users who want to manage their memory, I'd love to see your data.  Maybe you know of a memory manager app that has seen multiple millions of downloads?  Or do you have aggregate numbers in that range?  Please share the data you have and I'll take it to the appropriate people here.  

Zacho, I know you feel strongly about this, but I'm sorry to say that the chance of the icon being changed is pretty small.  A more likely long term change is to move toward the Smartphone and Symbian model (yes, Symbian doesn't let you close apps either) where there's no button at all and the only way to put the app away is to navigate to a different one.

Mokubai and Bob, I don't think making the Welcome tutorial even MORE annoying is the right solution to any problem.  (-:  As for using an manual transmission for fuel economy, that's one solution.  The other is to let technology do the job for you.  (My wife and I each owns a Prius, and we both regularly get 45MPG.  We'd do better if we didn't live at the top of a big hill.)

Daedalia, it sounds like you're saying, "Stop worrying about memory and start adding more features."  I assume you'll be happy if the next version still doesn't make it easy to close apps, but adds a bunch of features instead.  

Mike

# October 10, 2006 1:27 PM

Scott Yost said:

Since Mike is being calm and reasonable, I'll play bad cop.

It seems like we can agree that this functionality is primarily useful for people that like to use 3rd-party apps. And there is at least one third party app that nails this feature and people recommend it.

So it seems like it's not really useful for us to integrate that functionality into the platform. We'd be adding a feature that already exists in the ecosystem. And even if we stopped the world and implemented it today, you wouldn't see it for months and months and might need to buy a new device to get it. But you can install a 3rd-party app even on Daedalia's 2003SE device.

# October 10, 2006 2:28 PM

Zacho said:

scyost ...that is not a very intelligent statement.

I'll give you an analogy to it:

"There is no need to add better security to windows vista because you can already pay a 3rd party company some more money to have the holes fixed for you,