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WinFS Update

It's been nearly a year since I wrote my entry about WinFS Beta1, but rest assured, we have been working furiously since then.  Today I have an update about how we are delivering some of the WinFS technologies. It represents a change to our original delivery strategy, but it's a change that we think that you'll like based on the feedback that we've received. 

As most people who read this blog know, WinFS has always been about many things – a new model to enrich how users manage information, rich storage technology, and sometimes also a packaging of technology.  The real change I am addressing today is in the packaging strategy. 

There are many great technical innovations the WinFS project has created – innovations that go beyond just the WinFS vision but are part of a broader Data Platform Vision the company is pursuing.  The most visible example of this today is the work we are now doing in the next version of ADO.NET for Orcas.  The Entities features we are now building in ADO.NET started as things we were building for the WinFS API.  We got far enough along and were pushed on the general applicability of the work that we made the choice to not have it be just about WinFS but make it more general purpose (as an aside – this stuff is really coming together – super cool). 

Other technical work in the WinFS project is at a similar point – specifically the integration of unstructured data into the relational database, and automation innovations that make the database "just work" with no DBAs – "richer store" work.  It's these storage innovations that have matured to the point where we are ready to start working on including them in our broader database product.  We are choosing now to take the unstructured data support and auto-admin work and deliver it in the next release of MS SQL Server, codenamed Katmai.  This really is a big deal – productizing these innovations into the mainline data products makes a big contribution toward the Data Platform Vision we have been talking about.  Doing this also gives us the right data platform for further innovations. 

These changes do mean that we are not pursuing a separate delivery of WinFS, including the previously planned Beta 2 release.  With most of our effort now working towards productizing mature aspects of the WinFS project into SQL and ADO.NET, we do not need to deliver a separate WinFS offering. 

Be encouraged that we are able to get the underlying feature work into Orcas and Katmai.  It's great technology and we are super-excited to be productizing this way.  And most importantly, it's what people have been asking for – as we work with customers, we're constantly hearing that they want many of the technologies to be more broadly available in the data platform products. That feedback was taken seriously.

Of course, there are other aspects of the WinFS vision that we are continuing to incubate – areas not quite as mature as the work we are now targeting for Katmai and ADO.NET.   Since WinFS is no longer being delivered as a standalone software component, people will wonder what that means with respect to the Windows platform.  Just as Vista pushed forward on many aspects of the search and organize themes of the Longhorn WinFS effort, Windows will continue to adopt work as it's ready.  We will continue working the innovations, and as things mature they will find their way into the right product experiences – Windows and otherwise.  Having so much ready for SQL Server and ADO.NET is a big impact on the platform, and more will come.

That's all for now.  I know people won't be shy with questions and comments. 
- Quentin

Author: Quentin Clark

Published Friday, June 23, 2006 1:00 PM by WinFS Team

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# re: WinFS Update

So WinFS would be similar to Cairo?
Friday, June 23, 2006 4:30 PM by Dan

# WinFS таки да прикрыли

Еще одна грустная новость от Microsoft. WinFS лавочку прикрыли :(Quentin Clark сообщил, что части...
Friday, June 23, 2006 4:38 PM by nesher

# re: WinFS Update

I'm struck by a curious symmetry in this...I remember the announcement that ObjectSpaces was being rolled into WinFS (I was not exactly chuffed), and this seems almost like the converse (if you take the view that the Entities support in ADO.NET and LINQ have between them picked up where ObjectSpaces left off).
Since some features that were originally to be offered as part of WinFS seem to be finding their way into Vista under other forms, I'll have to have a good play with Vista before I have a feel for how much may have been lost.
But I assume: There goes the relational file system. Shame.
A message I got very early on (PDC 2003) was that file/object types could become meaningful in themselves rather than relying on the intelligence of a particular application designed to work with them: I hope that vision persists in some way.
Friday, June 23, 2006 4:45 PM by Kevin Daly

# re: WinFS Update

WinFS is dead.
Friday, June 23, 2006 4:47 PM by lexp

# re: WinFS Update

I hope people see this for what it is: WinFS has morphed, rather than what the naysayers will argue: WinFS is dead.
Friday, June 23, 2006 4:54 PM by Alex James

# re: WinFS Update

When WinFS was delayed the reason given was they were waiting for the next version of SQLServer. Now WinFS is scrapped because the next version of SQLServer is coming

Guys, please tell us whether we would get a relational file system in future versions of windows. We understand that the next version of SQLServer would support unstructured data. We understand that entities got adopted in ADO.NET. But could we expect a relational file system?
Friday, June 23, 2006 5:23 PM by Jos

# re: WinFS Update

If it's not a stand alone store system then it's dead. Having these features in SQL are really nice, but we thought it was about a file system.
Friday, June 23, 2006 5:39 PM by lynn

# さよならWinFs

WinFS Update@WinFS Team Blog はぁ?どこがアップデー...
Friday, June 23, 2006 5:41 PM by OPC Diary

# re: WinFS Update

Alex: Um, barring some clarification (especially touching on the relational file store issue), people could be forgiven for thinking that WinFS *has* morphed, certainly, but into something not unlike a corpse.
Friday, June 23, 2006 7:00 PM by Kevin Daly

# re: WinFS Update

Sounds like they're killing WinFS to me. It's really amazing. MS has been trying to pull this together for what now, 10+ years? This was the only thing I was looking forward to in Vista, and then post-Vista, and now never...
Friday, June 23, 2006 7:21 PM by Mohammed

# WinFS Project Ends, No Beta 2 Release

In the post that is sure to be slashdotted all to hell in the coming days, Quentin Clark of the WinFS...

# Craig’s Musings » Blog Archive » WinFS morphs

Friday, June 23, 2006 7:38 PM by Craig’s Musings » Blog Archive » WinFS morphs

# re: WinFS Update

What happens to "Project Orange"?
Friday, June 23, 2006 7:47 PM by lynn

# WinFS release vehicle announced: SQL Server "Katmai"

WinFS is no more. At least not as a separate product to be released as an add-on to Windows Vista some...
Friday, June 23, 2006 8:11 PM by Erwyn van der Meer

# re: WinFS Update

All what I wanted really from a file system is a smart lower layer, something you can call NTFS2, but a one that can handle very large amounts of files without knowing their contents.

I wanted all the basic things, like hard drive snapshots, the possibility to truncate a folder, like deleing 1,000,000+ files in no time (similar to the database) etc.

Try today deleting a folder with a million files, and tell me how many hours will it take :-)

I wanted a system that stores the file information itself to a database, a very simple database, not a database of the file contents.

And as expected, all what Microsoft wanted is that damn email message, the one used in all samples since the beginning of the 1990s, how to split it to its smallest pieces and store it in a smart file system.

But people are just repeating the mistakes, well; I think whoever writes a simple file system driver for windows, with a file allocation table similar to a database, a simple dbf table, and the source code is there on the internet, whoever does that, will be the next milliner.

The files on my machine are just not going anywhere, they are growing and growing, and Microsoft (nether the competitors) has a file system capable of handling them all, well, ntfs can store them, but what about performance :-)
Friday, June 23, 2006 8:28 PM by G.T.

# re: WinFS Update

So the relational file store for Windows is dead while the product technologies live on for use in other products?  Everything sounds so rosy in the article with all the progress on the technologies, but yet there will be no SQL file store for Windows.  So that's it then ... WinFS is dead.

For the guy who said it morphed... um, is there a product that will sit on top of Windows and do what WinFS promised?  No.  It's dead.  Thanks for playing.
Friday, June 23, 2006 8:49 PM by steve

# re: WinFS Update

Wow.  Talk about spin.

I'm normally a pretty strong supporter of MS, but I don't hesitate to lay into them when they deserves it.  This blog posting is pure spin.  WinFS is dead.

Ok, so you were able to salvage some of the years' worth of work put into WinFS and apply it to other platforms.  But in this posting you are severely twisting what WinFS was.  WinFS was *not* a platform for developers building on SQL Server, it was a part of Windows.  Heck, it was even billed as an entire "pillar" of the (at-the-time) Longhorn OS.

I remember reading about it, and there was an example about Outlook's PST file.  Currently, Outlook stores its mail in its own database format; with WinFS, mail messages would be simply another type of "item" that could be in your WinFS "store".  You could search through your mail items just as easily as your files; you could create relationships between your mail, contacts, and regular files.

By what this blog posting describes, this will no longer be possible.  This posting tries to spin it, however, saying things like "innovations that go beyond just the WinFS vision"--well, the WinFS vision (part of which I described in the paragraph above) is NOT being fulfilled.  Forget going "beyond" a vision if you're not going to hit its core first.

The Outlook PST example will not be possible with SQL Katmai--Outlook isn't based on SQL Server.  Though, I suppose Outlook could be rewritten to work on SQL Express (or the equivalent of the MSDE desktop version).

The bottom line is that WinFS was promoted as a Windows component that would enhance the file system and provide a new platform for data storage for Windows apps.  And this is now dead.  No amount of spin is going to cover that up.
Friday, June 23, 2006 9:41 PM by PatriotB

# WinFS not shipping

Friday, June 23, 2006 11:42 PM by Pooja Malpani

# re: WinFS Update

This is one of the most ridiculously managed project in microsoft. Teams that have taken dependency on WinFS are dead now. I remember MBF taking dependency on this dam thing for OR Mappling and is no where now.

You guys don't talk. First ship something and open your mouth! Never come to PDC and give preview of some prototype that never ships.
Saturday, June 24, 2006 12:05 AM by Tim Robson

# re: WinFS Update

"With most of our effort now working towards productizing mature aspects of the WinFS project into SQL and ADO.NET, we do not need to deliver a separate WinFS offering."

Non sequitur.
Saturday, June 24, 2006 12:13 AM by Ryan

# The Tech Journal » WinFS suffers the same fate as Cairo?

Saturday, June 24, 2006 12:26 AM by The Tech Journal » WinFS suffers the same fate as Cairo?

# WinFS Morphs into..."The Late WinFS".

News from Quentin Clark.

I was quite keen on the idea of a relational file store.

Oh well.
Saturday, June 24, 2006 2:44 AM by Kevin Daly

# re: WinFS Update


It sounds so positive. But it's like giving a speech in front of the coffin. You just keep remembering the guy inside, and the more you do, the more you remember he's dead.

Rock dead.
Saturday, June 24, 2006 2:57 AM by Lalo

# re: WinFS Update

What does this mean for the vision of me having a central store of say contacts across all applications in Windows? By making WinFS a teknology in SQL server, it seems the whole "central store" idea is no longer possible, as it will be up to each application to utilize the functionality. That's bad news in my book
Saturday, June 24, 2006 3:43 AM by Teis Johansen

# re: WinFS Update

What does this mean for the vision of me having a central store of say contacts across all applications in Windows? By making WinFS a teknology in SQL server, it seems the whole "central store" idea is no longer possible, as it will be up to each application to utilize the functionality. That's bad news in my book
Saturday, June 24, 2006 3:43 AM by Teis Johansen

# Kamal’s World » Blog Archive » WinFS is no more!

Saturday, June 24, 2006 4:26 AM by Kamal’s World » Blog Archive » WinFS is no more!

# [.NET] Des nouvelles de WinFS

Quentin Clark (Richard, un parent à toi ?  ) nous livre quelques informations sur WinFS (Windows...
Saturday, June 24, 2006 5:26 AM by Thomas Lebrun

# re: WinFS Update

So I guess this pushes an object file system in Windows another 6-8 years into the future...
Saturday, June 24, 2006 5:39 AM by Tom Servo

# re: WinFS Update

I think you are not helping with posts like this. Be frank and don't try to spin news like this. Here are the reason people were excited about WinFs:

- Relations between files
- Common schemas for things like contacts that can be shared between apps
- Access via "old" file system APIs for legacy apps
- Incredible synchronization story

All of these were features that end users would have witnessed directly. And, implicitly, all of these are gone for good now. Writing a post like "Oh, the exciting stuff will come in Katmai, this is really what you have asked for, this is good news" is just PR spin, be open and frank about this.

Part of that would be to come forware and let us know WHAT the reason was this was killed. Did perf not come along? Did important other apps like Outlook not sign on? What was the real reason?

I strongly believe that having a blog and engaging in an honest conversation can only work if you then don't try to play the usual PR "every decision is great" messages.

So, can you say anything about the four topics listed above? Are you still working on those for future Windows versions? Or have you given up completly on those? Let us know and talk to us!
Saturday, June 24, 2006 6:27 AM by davidacoder

# re: WinFS Update

For something completely different, since things get refactored and put into Katmai, what's the release date for it? Before Vienna? Is there a remote chance that Vienna will implement a relational file system?
Saturday, June 24, 2006 9:39 AM by Tom Servo

# The OS Review

Saturday, June 24, 2006 11:19 AM by The OS Review

# Whither WinFS?

Saturday, June 24, 2006 11:58 AM by Dare Obasanjo aka Carnage4Life

# re: WinFS Update

May 22nd you're hyping it and June 24th it's no longer? You guys are the keystone cops of software development.
Saturday, June 24, 2006 1:44 PM by bob

# Say goodbye to WinFS

With the announcement of Bill Gates’ planned departure, there was speculation as to the fate of some his pet projects including the perpetually elusive WinFS (”Windows Future Storage”) file system.  Well, the other shoe
Saturday, June 24, 2006 2:00 PM by Microsoft News Tracker

# WinFS - No more

Quentin Clark of the WinFS Team posts of the projects demise. Well he actually said was they broke up...
Saturday, June 24, 2006 2:49 PM by Jonathan's Blog

# re: WinFS Update

At first I read this and thought, oh no another 10 year wait for the cairo file system. and then I sat back and thought about it.

1:) the entity system has been embedded into ado.net and will probably will be the default framework (3.5??) in Fiji.

2.) we have not heard all of the feature set in fiji, so it is possible that we will hear more after vista is released, but is highly likly that there will be a data platform concentration with fiji, in conjunction with the released data platform. I at least hope so.

3.) we know peer to peer sync and castle was removed so that and the data platform would be a very good combination.

and working with the ntfs team so unified schema platform in windows can be realized.  

thanks
Saturday, June 24, 2006 3:04 PM by Douglas Husemann

# no winfs in vista at 5Tags

Saturday, June 24, 2006 3:34 PM by no winfs in vista at 5Tags

# This Week with Windows - Week of June 23, 2006

Welcome to This Week with Windows! That means everything from Windows XP to Windows Vista. Here are a
Saturday, June 24, 2006 4:37 PM by The Insider by Sidebar Geek

# Bye WinFS. But is it relational?

The WinFS team have announced that their product will effectively be absorbed into .NET 3.0 and into...
Saturday, June 24, 2006 4:50 PM by David Portas' Blog

# re: WinFS demise

"productized" LOL
Saturday, June 24, 2006 5:10 PM by Bilbo Baggins

# PoliTech » WinFS Scrapped, Parts Sold For Junk

Saturday, June 24, 2006 6:03 PM by PoliTech » WinFS Scrapped, Parts Sold For Junk

# re: WinFS Update

So WinFS' features are being absorbed into SQL Server. In effect, we won't be calling it WinFS; we'll be calling it SQL Server.

You just moved the target audience of "WinFS" from the Windows end users (the majority of the computer users) to a small fraction of the server market.

Revert the decision or WinFS is dead. To be brutally honest, you're in deep shxt.
Saturday, June 24, 2006 6:07 PM by rei

# No reason to upgrade to Vista now

Damn, this was the only reason why I was even thinking of upgrading to Vista when it came out. WinFS was awesome. Now, Vista is dead to me. :(
Saturday, June 24, 2006 7:30 PM by Gus

# Win FS deleted...

Seems that Microsoft finally gave up on one of their most promising ideas...
 
Good thing for...
Saturday, June 24, 2006 7:44 PM by anders

# Bobs blog » Damn!

Saturday, June 24, 2006 7:52 PM by Bobs blog » Damn!

# WinFS & SQL Server Katmai

Two interesting perspectives on what's happening with changes to the WinFS release:
http://blogs.msdn.com/winfs/archive/2006/06/23/644706.aspx...
Saturday, June 24, 2006 8:05 PM by Transaction blog

# re: WinFS Update

Seriously this a huge blow to Windows Vista technology portfolio.

Once considered one of the 'pillars' of Longhorn (wasn't it?), considered by me the revolutionary and much needed way of organizing info on the desktop, is now, file-system wise dead!

Please tell me this stance will be reviewed and reversed, if not for the next windows version at least!
Saturday, June 24, 2006 8:13 PM by Cathode

# re: WinFS Update

Unlike I believe the vast majority of your posters, I followed WinFS deeply and understood what you where doing with it. It was a brilliant way to address the issue of a whole new fs. But it also did occur to me how it wasn’t really much on top of other emerging technologies and looked like it should just 'be there' as opposed to a separate product. So this move doesn’t entirely surprise me. Everyone I discussed WinFS with didn't get it. Anyhow, great work on getting to here, some of us understand what you’ve done.
Saturday, June 24, 2006 8:15 PM by MikeP

# re: WinFS Update

Alex James said, "I hope people see this for what it is: WinFS has morphed, rather than what the naysayers will argue: WinFS is dead."

But whither Windows Future Store [or Windows File System]? That is gone. SQL will get some new features, but how does that help me organize my files?

It sounds like some implementation advances will get to be applied to another product, but WinFS, as a product, *is* dead.
Saturday, June 24, 2006 8:25 PM by Jeremy Morton

# re: WinFS Update

Why Why Why ? cant you take a risk ? and come out with something innovative ? Something you can call your own ? What are you afraid of ?
Saturday, June 24, 2006 8:48 PM by Vivek

# re: WinFS Update

How surprising.... :-)

Come on guys -- it was written all over for at least 3 years!

Yet another fine example of mediocre execution in a bureaucratic environment. Microsoft in his prime
Saturday, June 24, 2006 8:59 PM by Anonymous

# re: WinFS Update

For all people that don't understand the MS marketing blabla here is the translation of this blog article:

We have no idea how long it will take to complete the features we have promised in the last couple of years and get around all the problems so we have decided to rename the few things that work and put them into an other product. This way we will have some more years until even our most clueless customer will find out that we just can't deliver what we promised.
Saturday, June 24, 2006 9:07 PM by Translator

# re: WinFS Update

Instead of wrapping the death of WinFS in euphemisms, MS should admit it and instead share with the world the technical challenges (if any) that made the project infeasible. It'll be helpful for other people who are planning to do stuff similar to WinFS.
Saturday, June 24, 2006 9:08 PM by WinFS observer

# The Golden Braid » Blog Archive » WinFS is Dead. Long Live Vaporware!!

# re: WinFS Update

Woah, there Quentin. Take a writing course! Your text is full of corporate blabla and nonsensical words. What you are doing to the english langauge is a scandal
Saturday, June 24, 2006 9:33 PM by Caspar

# Re: WinFS Update

After multiple years of wasting our share holders  's money, I hope to see someone to take responsibility for this WinFS failure.
Saturday, June 24, 2006 10:16 PM by MS-shareholder

# re: WinFS Update

Cairo went south and now WinFS, one of the three core features of Longhorn, advertised and partied about, declared abandoned.
Vaporware, the second time.
Hopefully, with Gates' retirement, the visionaries grab some sense.
Saturday, June 24, 2006 10:17 PM by ToBeExpected

# re: WinFS Update

Boooo Hissssss

WinFS was an innovative forward thinking project for the client. Basically you guys are telling me now that was all untrue and that it'll serve me better as part of SQL server and ADO.Net.
Now why do I feel like I was being sold a pipedream?

Saturday, June 24, 2006 10:26 PM by Justin Broderick

# Anyone remember Cairo?

Cairo was a version of NT that was supposed to
ship with an earlier incarnation of WinFS,
OFS.  (See http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/os/story/0,10801,69882,00.html )
That was, oh, twelve years ago.
I used to think that computers just weren't powerful
enough for a database to replace the OS's main
filesystem yet, but even though computers are now
about 250 times faster, it's evidently still not
the right time.  Maybe it was just a bad idea?
Saturday, June 24, 2006 11:13 PM by Dan Kegel

# re: WinFS Update

So when will we see some work to improve NTFS from a performance and reliability standpoint?
Saturday, June 24, 2006 11:21 PM by Callahan

# re: WinFS Update

So, where does this leave us for filesystems for Vista?  Is WinFS the filesystem dead?  If so, then I consider WinFS itself dead.. SQL Server stuff is nice, I guess, but it's nowhere near as useful or relevant (how many normal users use SQL server?)
Saturday, June 24, 2006 11:23 PM by Adam S.

# re: WinFS Update

EXCERPT:
And most importantly, it's what people have been asking for

COMMENT:
Customers are NOT asking for this technology to be removed from Vista (even if they do want it available in SQL Server). Besides, if WinFS were available in the operating system, would it not also be available to both SQL Server and its clients? Something doesn't smell good.
Saturday, June 24, 2006 11:32 PM by jonnie savell

# WinFS Is Dead at jarkolicious

Saturday, June 24, 2006 11:40 PM by WinFS Is Dead at jarkolicious

# re: WinFS Update

Over the last 24 hrs I've had a fair bit of time to digest some initial reaction to the 'no seperate WinFS' announcement. My initial reaction was very ho hum, ADO.NET Entities is going to be pretty cool.

But listening to other people's reactions, I can see that I had kind of lost sight of the fact that it means we will have no relational file system in the forseeable future...
Sunday, June 25, 2006 12:05 AM by Alex James

# 13 years of this non-sense

I really tire of this.  Cario then Blackcomb then Longhorn now Vienna?  .NET technologies totally tossed out, leaving little more than "Indigo" which is sandboxed .NET Internet services atop of [polluted] Win32 (didn't we already have that with Java 5 years ago)?  And no CairoFS -- sorry, I mean WinFS -- is dead.   "Vaporware and switch" strategy -- why don't you guys just stop promising what you'll *NEVER* deliver?!

I'm not just a "pundit."  I was a solid, NT 3.1+ supporter from day 1 in 1993 -- coming from OS/2 and UNIX.  But there is not even a *BASIC* solution that addresses the SAM-SID NTFS store other than using a "domain" SAM or a "hidden area" in a LDM disk label (dynamic disk).  These hacks up on hacks upon hacks really make it *DIFFICULT* to maintain enterprises of Windows Servers and desktops.

In 1993, I thought NT was the future and community-developed software like GNU/Linux was a toy.  But by 1994, with "Chicago" (DOS) getting the thumbs-up from Gates, forever making "Cario" (NT) it's "bitch" -- I knew NT was screwed forever.  Community developed has continually impressed me by underpromising and overdelivering.

Making Microsoft should take a note and stop promising solutions that are "grand" and end up being vaporware.  You can start by addressing the real flaws in NTFS filesystems with just some _simple_ modifications -- stuff you promised some 12 years ago in CarioFS.  It seems you keep promising more and still won't deliver on just the basics we need!

Sorry for the rant, but Longhorn has been a 100% repeat of Cario, only 10 years later.
Sunday, June 25, 2006 12:07 AM by Bryan J. Smith

# Alert: new jargon!

When did programs become "product experiences"?
Sunday, June 25, 2006 12:20 AM by Mark

# ext3

Ext3 filesystem for life! :)
Sunday, June 25, 2006 12:25 AM by Chris

# Microsoft's biggest problem

Microsoft is awesome at everything, except "Actually releasing products we can use".  They talked about ObjectSpaces back when I was a baby. They didn’t deliver.They talked about DLINQ, and came out with Entity Framework, which is still a good
Sunday, June 25, 2006 12:38 AM by Sahil Malik - blah.winsmarts.com

# re: WinFS Update

I love Microsoft, its such a wonderful company
Sunday, June 25, 2006 12:54 AM by joe

# re: WinFS Update

WinFS is dead.  God save the WinFS.
Sunday, June 25, 2006 1:01 AM by anonymous

# re: WinFS Update

Hello!

WinFS was baby of Bill Gates. Is death of WinFS related with his departure? I want to hear BG's opinion regarding this news ...

Thanks, Roman
Sunday, June 25, 2006 2:36 AM by modicr

# edspace » Blog Archive » Windows only makes it worse

# re: WinFS Update

IT IS A SHAME. MS promised us this thing nearly two decades ago.
More, it was in my opinion the only component that should give Vista its *real* value. Now this OS is just a revamped XP with candy gadgets to suck memory and waste CPU cycles.
Poor management, crazy marketing and names changes : MS is clearly in the wild.
Time to seek alternatives...
Sunday, June 25, 2006 2:44 AM by Joel Jacob

# re: WinFS Update

And... it seems that comments that aren't pingbacks aren't getting posted?
Sunday, June 25, 2006 2:52 AM by PatriotB

# Seekbrain.com » WinFS Dead

Sunday, June 25, 2006 3:25 AM by Seekbrain.com » WinFS Dead

# re: WinFS Update

Why doesn't it surprise me? WinFS is a classic example of paralysis by over analysis. Lofty goals need lofty execution, which the WinFS team lacked.
Sunday, June 25, 2006 3:28 AM by KK

# re: WinFS Update

Dead, dead, dead. Just when I though M$ would for once actually be able to innovate and produce anything. Oh well, I guess you'll try again once Apple of Linux has this working.

Remind me again what's left in Vista except lots of pain from apps not working within their new sand box?
Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:04 AM by Doom

# re: WinFS Update

It shows how Microsoft is still 15-20 years behind what Unix and IBM Mainframes can provide today.
Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:06 AM by Joseph

# re: WinFS Update

"With most of our effort now working towards productizing mature aspects of the WinFS project into SQL and ADO.NET, we do not need to deliver a separate WinFS offering."

OH YES YOU DO! you promised it, remember? besides, WinFS was the "main" feature and selling argument of Vista. you stripped like each new feature in Vista, and it looks to me that Vista will be nothing more but a new GUI skin for WinXP.

"After multiple years of wasting our share holders  's money, I hope to see someone to take responsibility for this WinFS failure."

LOL, don't even dream about that. you cannot blame anyone, nobody is responsible, because everyone played by the rules (i.e. The Big Holy Process Defined By The Company), and the 12 levels of management singed along.

now seriously guys: all the new features of Vista got stripped by now - so tell me at least one selling argument: WHY should i buy? cause i'm not going to pay for a new shiny XP skin alone. show me a single example of something, which is not possible to do with Windows XP, but will be available in Vista!
Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:16 AM by Anonymous Coward

# WinFS, no more..? at Wiggler

Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:17 AM by WinFS, no more..? at Wiggler

# Take the lead, never follow…. :: WinFS is Dead?!

Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:23 AM by Take the lead, never follow…. :: WinFS is Dead?!

# re: WinFS Update

Quentin, from your posting and many of the comments above, it would perhaps be beneficial to clarify the following:

1. Your posting implies that WinFS benefits will be released as they become mature. The corollary is that WinFS is being dropped because of technical immaturity - could you be more specific as to the technical issues you have faced.

2. What are both the timescales and features which are scheduled for release over time, and in what products?

3. After so much investment, and with the feeling that we're so close to the prize - what was the rational behind shifting delivery strategy in this way? How much of the decision was based on technology, and how much was based on business/strategy issues?

4. In terms of Windows Vista, what WinFS benefits are expected to be released and what are the expected timescales?

I may be being naïve, but clarification of the above questions would help consumers of Microsoft products understand the implications of your announcement.

Sundeep Sidhu.//
Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:32 AM by Sundeep

# re: WinFS Update

Reiser baby!
Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:39 AM by Bob Lewis

# re: WinFS Update

The blog article is just a way to paraphrase the whole thing and make it look good. People were waiting for a Database Filesystem and some new feature for SQL Server. Lame. WinFS is dead, like Cairo. Microsoft isn't able to learn from their flaws of the past.
They should evaluate to hire some former BeFS/BFS (BeOS Filesystem) Developers.

So are there any plans for a Database Filesystem or a successor for NTFS.
Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:41 AM by frik

# re: WinFS Update

HAHAHAHA... HEHEHEHEHE.... So damn funny. Microsoft is so paralyzed; I think the proper mood is Windows is dead...Think GOD for Linux; Something predictable that JUST WORKS....
Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:49 AM by Linuxrocks

# re: WinFS Update

Well :(

I was interested always in IT future. For me it was amazing to play with Windows Longhorn since I've got 4008 build. The most interesting thing in it was the feature called Windows Future Storage. The whole idea to create the new type of data system (against file system), that would offer data relations, full-text search, smart data organization made me happy with it. It was very nice to play with 4074, and 5048 told me that the world is going to crash now. But, unfortunately, we've got WinFS Beta 1 by August 2005, and that was the most biggest surprise for all of us.
I've started to learn WinFS from 4008, and have currently a set of applications that utilize WinFS Beta 1 Refresh, among them there are some Shell Extentions wrriten by me and wrapped into Windows Explorer itself.

I'm really feeling bad no as WinFS is closed.

Windows Desktop Search even with TxFS willn't ever try to do the work that WinFS does.

That is easy to understand.

Windows Vista Search is so so, better than Windows XP Search of course, but it willn't ever try to offer us other features of WinFS.

RSS is cool, but WinFS Notifications Framework is somewhat.

Windows Vista Sync Center is nice, but features of WinFS Sync are the things that developers need in real.

The whole centralized store for all data, structured, related data system - that was the thing we all waited for.

Dear Quentin, please tell me, will Microsoft try to recreate WinFS in future? If so when do we expect it?
Sunday, June 25, 2006 5:14 AM by Daniel A. Kornev

# bytowisko » Archiwum wpis??w » Jestem geniuszem

Sunday, June 25, 2006 5:34 AM by bytowisko » Archiwum wpis??w » Jestem geniuszem

# Bait and Siwtch

So, the underlying technology (i.e. a relational database system) will be shipping with SQL Server (a relational database system)... Groundbreaking!
Sunday, June 25, 2006 6:09 AM by Porges

# re: WinFS Update

I've just re-read the blog posting and have to hand it to Quentin - great Spin! He took hundreds of words to say one simple thing: "WinFS is Dead".

Quentin has a great future working for MS markeing.

Sadly,we don't get WinFS.
Sunday, June 25, 2006 6:39 AM by Billy Bob Joe Bob

# MS really botched this time

This is a very big mistake IMHO. WinFS, as part of Windows, could have been the one thing that would have set Windows, as a platform, years ahead of the competition (MacOS, Linux, ...). It would have been the foundation for a new way to think about organizing (Desktop-)Users data. It would have enabled a whole new concept of data-sharing accross applications. But the only way this could ever have worked would have been if MS put all its weight together and just make a bold statement like: this is how data is going to be organized in the future. The sad thing is that it will be almost impossible for a 3rd party to develop something like WinFS and see it widely adopted. This stuff has to be a core element of the OS, because only then will enough devolpers pick up on it. I actually wrote a blog post on pretty much this topic back in Summer 2005: http://www.danyx.com/node/44

I think this is maybe the one strategical mistake at microsoft that they will regret most over the next 5-10 years.

Daniel
Sunday, June 25, 2006 6:40 AM by DanyX

# ReiserFS

Sunday, June 25, 2006 8:01 AM by Yiorgos

# re: WinFS Update

I was somewhat interested in seeing what would happen from a security perspective if MS were to slap a Relational DB on every client machine running Vista.  I am sure that would massivly increase the surface area for attack on client machines.....  That said, it had some fantastic functionality which was most intersting.
Sunday, June 25, 2006 8:18 AM by Jimbo

# What's the Big Deal Anyway? at The NeoSmart Blog

Sunday, June 25, 2006 8:28 AM by What's the Big Deal Anyway? at The NeoSmart Blog

# Mark Gilbert's Blog » WinFS RIP 23/06/2006

Sunday, June 25, 2006 9:03 AM by Mark Gilbert's Blog » WinFS RIP 23/06/2006

# re: WinFS Update

It certainly sounds like you are killing off WinFS. Now why on earth would you do that?

Nobody can accuse Microsoft of being the leader when it comes to innovation, but WinFS was actually something fundamentally new. Without it the newer versions of Windows seem like minor cosmetic upgrades. OS X is already there, in some areas perhaps even ahead of Vista. Linux will catch up.

With Web 2.0+ applications, which OS you are running is becoming less important from a compatibility point of view. So if Microsoft wants to maintain its dominance in the field it can't produce mediocre products. It must take the lead and actually give people a reason to buy a Microsoft OS.
Sunday, June 25, 2006 9:23 AM by Luka

# re: WinFS Update

What a shame and disappointment.  Two comments and lessons Microsoft should seriously take to heart:
1. Don't promise what you can't deliver.
2. Serious consider what REALLY matters and add values to your products.  

WinFS had to potential to add true value to the Windows OS.  WinFS was a true consumer need.

Vista is filled with "glitz" and eye-candy that in the end is not focused on important end-users needs.  Take a close look at the Vista feature page: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/features/default.mspx

What does Vista really have that you can't get from using XP (or other OS), with a few other (not to mention, freely avalable) add-ons?  Priorities at Microsoft need to be "realigned".
Sunday, June 25, 2006 10:27 AM by Brent

# re: WinFS Update


Cut the crap.  You knifed the baby.  WinFS is dead, and Vista is a DRM-infested, bloated, resource-sucking, eye-candied yawn.
Sunday, June 25, 2006 10:56 AM by Spock

# re: WinFS Update

"The key here, I think, is to not think of death as an end, but think of it more of a very effective way of cutting down on your expenses."

  -- Woody Allen, "Love and Death"
Sunday, June 25, 2006 11:02 AM by Karim

# Os’s Blog » Blog Archive » WinFS has ceased to be

Sunday, June 25, 2006 11:25 AM by Os’s Blog » Blog Archive » WinFS has ceased to be

# re: WinFS Update

Basically meaning that if you want a relational file system, develop it yourself or use Linux. Thanks.
Sunday, June 25, 2006 11:31 AM by Jonathan Rothwell

# Gizzar » Fine example of what a blog SHOULDN’T be like

# Fred.cpp y sus cosas » Blog Archive » WinFS Update - promesas incumplidas

# re: WinFS Update

Huh? This is the worst spin I've ever heard. You're "productizing" in response to "customer demands"? I have never, ever heard anyone say "boy .. WinFS sounds great .. wish it was only available in SQL Server!".

What a load of bollocks! WinFS was supposed to be the grand new Windows FileSystem. That's what it stood for before you renamed it "Future Store". Now, it's neither, now it's some proprietary DB thing no-one's going to use? Guess what guys. We already have databases. I can name a billion ways to store data of any type you want in any DB you want and it'll work great.

We don't want a new DB, we want a new filesystem. This project is nothing but a TOTAL FAILURE and as you can easily see, no-one who read your silly "put on a happy face" post was fooled at all.

Seriously .. can MS do anything big anymore? Enquiring minds want to know. This is just failure after failure. What the hell's gone wrong up there?
Sunday, June 25, 2006 11:51 AM by Sho

# re: WinFS Update

Yes you do need to offer WinFS as a standalone product:

Some of us novice developers don't want to have to go through the hassle of using an SQL server or dealing with ADO.net. We want a god damned clean and easy to use, STANDALONE system of managing files for our applications, ans WinFS was something I personally looked forward to until you guys killed it. I fail to see why I still beta test for you guys as a whole, because you guys drop features left and right.

WinFS didn't evolve, it was cut into pieces and left for dead.
Sunday, June 25, 2006 12:34 PM by noitsnot

# WinFS RIP, long live Linux

So, I think you managed to achieve blowback out of not just one but TWO body orifices.  Congratulations, I thought that was a special honor only reserved for the White House press secretary.

Let me see if I got the basic gist.  WinFS as a client side technology built into the operating system is dead but the smart technology bits will be folded into an enterprise level tool.  In short, the ability to have relational data schema is gone for the VERY forseeable future, or until the OpenSource community figures out how to get it to work.  Bad news, it looks like they may be close (<a href="http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/reviews/5816/1/">Tenor Project</a>).

I am a big Microsoft fan, I like your products.  Windows XP is my primary operating system, Office 2003 is my primary productivity environment.  Visual Studio 2005 is my primary development environment.  I have a special loathing for Mac, but I am forced to utilize Linux for some development and work with dedicated Medical technologies.

From that vantage point, I think that Microsoft has some serious trouble coming their way in the next year.  There is a convergence of several technologies, specifically: the Looking Glass Project, the Tenor Project, and KDE 4.0 which provide a compelling reason for me to move from a Windows development environment to a Linux environment.

Specifically, I want and need the relational file system that WinFS promised to be.  A revamped SQL server isn't going to give me the functionality I want to have at the Operating System level.

I want the ability to treat individual file types like objects and have universal relationships which is the core functionality of WinFS and why it even matters.  How precisely is a re-vamped ADO.net going to allow me to do that?

In addition to the vaporware claim, Microsoft just made a huge strategic blunder.  You are choosing to abandon the largest consumer market for a niche market.  While I understand WinFS was to be a free add-on, you had many application developers convinced it was end-all and be-all.  With WinFS, the added functionality at the OS level would have been huge.  I may have finally be able to convince my higher ups to port our Linux Apps over to Windows.  Now I think I will be making the pitch that we port our Windows Apps to Linux once Tenor and other technologies become available.
Sunday, June 25, 2006 12:38 PM by Kalervo

# re: WinFS Update

Kinda expected it do die a slow death.
Sunday, June 25, 2006 12:41 PM by linux.com

# re: WinFS Update

nice job MS!
you are the best company!!!!
ur making Vista the next ME!
... time to look somewhere else, perhaps OS X?


Sunday, June 25, 2006 12:43 PM by EACC

# penk - Keep on rockin&#8217; in the free world &raquo; Blog Archive &raquo; ????????????

# Vibrant Solutions &raquo; Microsoft Cancels more features of Longhorn

# Tales from a Trading Desk &raquo; Blog Archive &raquo; WinFS: Dead

# WinFS is no more

Well this news sucks. The WinFS team at Microsoft has posted a new blog entry that sounds so positive,...
Sunday, June 25, 2006 3:53 PM by MasterMaq's Blog

# re: WinFS Update

bubble memory, voice recognition, WinFS, QED
Sunday, June 25, 2006 3:55 PM by Joel Goldstick

# Team Murder &raquo; Yeah, But The GUI Changed

Sunday, June 25, 2006 3:56 PM by Team Murder » Yeah, But The GUI Changed

# WinFS ceased to be ...

Sunday, June 25, 2006 3:58 PM by Matej Cepl

# re: WinFS Update

WinFS is dead.  I had viewed Vista as a prerequiste to the eventual release of WinFS.  To me this means, there is nothing much of interest on the horizon beyond Vista and there is no real improvement to Outlook coming either.  So, if Office 2007 runs on Windows XP, tell me exactly why I want to switch to Vista.  Every day the idea of switching to a Mac that can run the few Windows apps I can't do without is looking better and better.  Furthermore, desktop Linux probably isn't as dumb an idea as I once thought either.  I'm even going to have to go back and check on how Chandler is doing.  When a die hard Windows nut likes me begins to see a horizon filled with Macs and Linux desktops with open source core applications instead of the promise of a better Windows, I think that might be something for Microsoft to be concerned about.  Ray Ozzie, who I admire, may be Microsoft's last hope.

Ray, you got one shot.  Make it a good one.
Sunday, June 25, 2006 3:59 PM by Jim Gay

# re: WinFS Update

"We've worked on advanced file systems before, and our customers should be happy to know we don't give up on something that's important to them even if we didn't get it right."
-- Steve Ballmer, re: WinFS, 10/19/2005  http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/steve/2005/10-19Gartner.mspx
Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:00 PM by PatriotB

# Malware&#8217;s Blog

Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:14 PM by Malware’s Blog

# re: WinFS Update

Damn it !! its so depressing !!!! BillG is leaving his empire at a very wrong time. Have they discontinued it on Ray's orders ?
Sunday, June 25, 2006 4:32 PM by Abubakar

# re: WinFS Update

This just makes me angry.  Usually I am the one sticking up for Microsoft, but this time they just went too far.  I don't care if it takes until winter of 2008 - make WinFS happen as a standalong "file system".  I've seen beta 1 and I can't understand why they are able to move forward with this.  I have to imagine that is internal political nonsense.

I'm very disappointed.
Sunday, June 25, 2006 5:00 PM by JT

# re: WinFS Update

I seriously hope this decision isn't due to conflict of interest with bigger, more mature Microsoft products, but I'm guessing that's what happened.

WinFS was set up to be an MSDE/SQL Express killer.  But that lives in a separate product family.

WinFS was also set up to make the Office family of products have to work harder on the front-end by making a level playing field on the back-end.  But Office also lives in a separate product family.

Both of those product families are major "premium offering" cash cows, while WinFS would be free in the "non-premium" Windows.  It wouldn't offer the "get them hooked on the lite version and force an upgrade when they need more power" upgrade path like SQL Server does.

If you want to change the world with a relational file system, you have to make it absolutely ubiquitous.  This means giving it away, no ifs ands or buts.  This makes it a foundational platform service for Ray Ozzie's services future, similar to the RSS Platform in IE7.

But the cash cows get more love from Ballmer.  People like Gray "Premium Offering" Knowlton who came from Adobe and was put in charge of InfoPath in the Office family keep killing awesome products by refusing to open the doors that would make the product truly ubiquitous.  Acrobat wouldn't have taken over the world if its Reader wasn't free.  But no, they still believe they can take over the world, one enterprise silo at a time.  It won't work.  You're fundamentally stuck in the silos, no matter how many you can win over.

I wish WinFS could have been another one of the Windows * Foundation pillars, but I understand the desire to "productize" instead of "foundationalize".  All I can say is good luck.
Sunday, June 25, 2006 5:22 PM by Oran

# re: WinFS Update

How about we stop crying and organize a petition or something?

I'd say it'd be worth doing.

Anyone with me?
Sunday, June 25, 2006 5:28 PM by rei

# Hugo&#8217;s blog &raquo; The saga of the revolutionized file system for Windows continues

# re: WinFS Update

i'st bad! I'm very disappointed! Fuck...
Sunday, June 25, 2006 6:19 PM by radioman