Welcome to MSDN Blogs Sign in | Join | Help

On Backwards Compatibility

I'm certain that many of you have been waiting for us to say something about how backwards compatibility works on Xbox 360.  It is a very complex topic, to say the least.  Thanks to XboxFan, a member of the backwards compatibility development team here for providing a lot of these details.

Xbox is based on a Pentium III processor, while Xbox 360 is based on a custom triple-core PowerPC processor co-developed with IBM.  This is but one of many differences between the platforms, but one people are familiar with.  Digging deeper, you would find that nearly everything has changed.  Graphics, audio, networking, etc. have all been replaced with different subsystems.

Xbox games all run on the assumption they are being run on the exact set of original hardware.  Changing anything usually means breaking some kind of behavior games depend upon.  Therefore, Xbox 360's backwards compatibility had to emulate the exact configuration of an original Xbox.

One way to do this is embed the parts of an original Xbox into an Xbox 360.  This was the path Sony chose to use in PlayStation 2's compatibility.  However, Microsoft doesn't own the intellectual property in Xbox: it's owned by various other companies including Intel.  Microsoft wouldn't have the freedom to take the parts needed for compatibility, shrink them down, and put them inside Xbox 360.  And no one would want a bigger power supply any way :)

Another option is software emulation.  Many of you already know this is the path Microsoft has chosen.  Our software emulator works much like emulators for other platforms like SNES and Genesis.  However, one key difference to keep in mind is that the Xbox emulator is emulating the immediate previous generation of games.  Most emulators come out many years after a console has launched and run on PCs that represent quantum leaps in performance.

Writing an emulator isn't the same as writing other pieces of software.  Other software has a lot of top-down process to it: design, prototype, revise, etc.  The goal and design of emulation is pre-ordained: do whatever it takes to act like what you're emulating.

At some point, your first attempt at emulation acts like the old hardware as well as it can.  At that point, you try your luck: does Halo run?  The answer is both yes and no at this stage.  Yes, the executable loads and starts running some x86 code, but no you don't see anything on the screen.  Then it promptly crashes.

Debugging

Traditionally, when your software crashes, you fire up a debugger, step through code, and analyze the logic.  Usually, source code accompanies your debugging to help you track stuff.  It's quite different when you're debugging emulated software - especially software you had no hand in writing.  Is the problem due to code in the emulator?  Or is the code inside the emulated stuff just plain wrong?  Here's what XboxFan had to say about debugging:

Debugging BC ["backwards compatibility"] is much like debugging any other software, but there are a few things that make it harder: We typically have neither source code nor symbolic information for the games we’re debugging, so we’re just looking at raw assembly code with no external clues as to what it’s doing (or what it’s supposed to do).   Obviously debugging code others wrote is always harder than debugging code you wrote yourself.  It’s hard to know what the code normally does, and indeed some games already have a few bugs of their own.  Debugging a mixed environment -- both the emulated Xbox (x86 assembly in one address space) and the translated native code and emulator runtime (PPC code in another address space) – can also be challenging.  You have to master a lot of aspects of both the original Xbox (hardware, compiler, and operating system) and the Xbox 360.

Debugging software in general is hard work.  Unlike feature work, which can be meticulously planned out, estimating schedules and distributing the work among many different people, debugging can usually only be done by one person at a time and there’s no way to know up front how long the process will take.  Perhaps you’ll find the bug quickly and fix it quickly.  Or perhaps it will take a week to find.  And while you work on it you may uncover additional bugs.

Most software developers don’t actually debug software – we troubleshoot.  If a system link game is disconnecting sometimes, then it must be a problem with the networking code, right?  We first look at the code that handles networking.  If system link worked fine a few days ago, then we look for code changes that happened around the time it stopped working.   Usually in this way it’s possible to quickly narrow down where the problem is and fix it.  In contrast, debugging involves stepping through the code one instruction at a time to see exactly what it’s doing.

For BC, debugging is especially challenging.  Although sometimes during our daily work we make a bad code change that temporarily causes something that previously worked to stop working, the vast majority of the time you’re debugging something that has never worked.  There is no way to troubleshoot this; you have to debug the code step by step until you uncover what’s missing or wrong.

So for example, during BC development we sometimes had problems with system link games.  Once it was caused by the emulator missing a cryptographic key.  Another time, it was caused by a very small precision error in floating point.  Yet another time, it was caused by a subtle bug in the CPU emulator that caused it to take the wrong branch in the game’s internal state machine and ultimately (millions of instructions later) disconnect.

Performance

Once you've got a game up and running, it may not perform very well at all.  If you're a computer science student, you most likely understand the idea of coding a horribly performing, but correct, implementation of an algorithm - only to completely rewrite it a different way later.  The same thing happens in emulation, only we get to take some shortcuts.

Luckily, backwards compatibility doesn't need to emulate things exactly right.  One of the biggest problems in emulation are exceptions.  Exceptions are interrupts that occur when something unexpected happens.  For instance, dividing by zero, accessing memory you're not supposed to, etc. all raise exceptions.  There are very few exceptions that video games care about.  Many times, they will completely ignore them.  When an exception occurs, many games simply crash or exit.  Backwards compatibility on Xbox 360 exploits this common behavior - as well as other common patterns.

Here's some more from XboxFan:

Performance work is even harder.  Once you’ve eliminated all the “obvious” performance bottlenecks, you’re left with possibilities that are neither certain nor absolute.  You could change the code in this way, but it might not be faster – you won’t know until you try it.  There might be several different ways to improve performance, and each way might improve some scenarios while degrading others.

When debugging, the correctness of each individual part is what matters.  However, it’s not the raw performance of each individual part that matters, but the performance of the system as a whole.  Individual code routines might have excellent performance on their own, but when used together one part can interfere with another in many ways (including cache effects, CPU pipeline effects, lock contention, etc.).  There are so many variables and so many different things that can be measured, and the act of measuring performance affects the performance of what you’re measuring.

BC performance work differs from typical software performance work in only two ways.  First of all, emulators do some highly specialized things -- like interrupt handling and very low-level memory management -- that most software programs (other than operating systems) never do.  Secondly, it’s not usually the performance of the emulator itself that matters, but rather the overall performance as perceived by the emulated Xbox game.  Most of our work isn’t to improve the performance of the code we wrote, but rather to improve the performance of the emulated games.  Overall, we approach performance in the same way that all software developers do: Measure, make a change, and measure some more.

I wanted to speculate a little on what PS3 might be doing for backwards compatibility.  Sony hasn't announced that PS2 hardware will be die-shrunk and placed inside PS2.  If that's the case, there must at least be some software support for backwards compatibility.  As Major Nelson noted in his podcast, Ken Kutaragi noted in a previous presentation that backwards compatibility was gated on games following TRCs (or TCRs as Xbox folk call them).  I hope Sony doesn't alienate gamers based on an excuse like technical requirements.  More on that in a future post, I think, since it's getting pretty late.


Published Monday, March 20, 2006 1:15 AM by shaheeng

Comments

# On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, April 04, 2006 3:54 AM by Xbox Team
I finally got around to writing that article on backwards compatibility, with a little help from other...

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, April 04, 2006 5:00 AM by soco
thanks for the post! interesting, although rather identical to my tg16 emulator, despite being an ancient console :)

i'd be interested in knowing whether it uses dynamic recompilation or if it actually software emulates all of the instructions. further, does it use the additional cores for things such as the audio processing and shader translation?

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, April 04, 2006 7:13 AM by Paul Hill
Fantastic start!  Will there be any more detail on the how stuff?  Is it just brute force?  Are you JITting on one core, CPU emulating on another and GPU emulating on the third? More please, this is fascinating!

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, April 04, 2006 8:56 AM by Big Daddy Shark
Thanks for the article. One question though, what is a TCR/TRC ?

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, April 04, 2006 8:58 AM by HaksawUK
An interesting read, I'm staying hopeful and patient that my favourate games will be emulated for my xbox 360.

I have a question, when you're in the decidion of what game to emulate and what games you're not going to emulate (or leave to a later time), what factors play on this decision? Do you tend to go for xbox live games, knowing that people who use xbox live on their xbox 360, cannot access their original Xbox for online play.

Or do you choose the easiest/game that shows some promise of 'easier' emulation?

Oh and could you give a hint at whats to come please, ;)

Thanks,
HaksawUK
England

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, April 04, 2006 9:12 AM by zzz
I do not see any issue in writing games fully in c#. The only real problem in backwards compat is what to do about possible hand optimized shader assembly. Of course you could mandate the use of HLSL ...

How about running Singularity on Xbox N together with DX10 compatible framework..

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, April 04, 2006 9:55 AM by jeffyjones
I'm still crossing my fingers that Munch's Oddysee will make the list. It's the only reason my old Xbox is still plugged in!

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, April 04, 2006 10:38 AM by Sinistar
That backhanded Sony comment was rich considering all the problems that have been encountered in the 360's BC.  I think you guys need to worry about the users *you're* alienating before being concerned about Sony's approach.

I can certainly appreciate the difficulty in providing full emulation in software for an entire game console, but let's face facts - BC has a black eye right now.  It'll heal over time, but for now, it's probably best not to throw punches at the competition regarding this topic.

Standard PR/marketing tactics, I know.  But what I would really like to see here is the Xbox Team focusing on the Xbox and not on what the Joneses are doing.  Any time you guys dig on the PS3, it just comes across as mildly infantile.  Why not instead just keep telling us about the Xbox and stop mentioning what the competition is doing?

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, April 04, 2006 11:44 AM by Otherwhen
Thank you!!

It's great to see some 'official' information on BC - the first for a while.

What would also be great, and go a long way to staving off the hoards of angry gamers, is some indications on your release stategy.  How often you would realistically like to be releasing updates, numbers of games, are you still intending to eventually support the whole library of Xbox games that kind of thing.

The last update from the BC team was a double edged sword - months of silence, then an update for three games - one slightly 'foxed'.  Something at last but argh.  You get the picture.

So, if we could have something on what you are planning and working towards so we are reassured that the commitment is still there, but that it's mired a bit in the technical implementation...

Thank's again!

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, April 04, 2006 11:50 AM by scrapple
Id like to see the following 2 games make the list:

1. NCAA Football 2006 or 2005
2. EA MVP Baseball 2005

Both of these games have huge fan base support...

now how about that poker on live and street fighter? whats the status?

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, April 04, 2006 12:04 PM by Konsolkongen
OutRun 2

Its the only great game on the xbox. Enough said...

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, April 04, 2006 2:11 PM by Spylon
I'll keep my fingers crossed that you guys succeed but if the Xbox 1 starts disappearing from shelves I might just go out an buy it.

# Some Background On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, April 04, 2006 2:48 PM by Gamerscore Blog
There are a couple of articles that have been posted today that are worth pointing out:
Larry Hryb...

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, April 04, 2006 2:49 PM by MarxMarvelous37
I'm a CS graduate who works in the industry and the work you guys do *still* amazes me.  Perhaps it would be easier to be "ignorant" to the process and just bitch at you guys for not making every single game work.  ;)

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, April 04, 2006 3:06 PM by Greg O.
Way back when I first heard the rumors that Xbox(next) would be using a PowerPC, all I could think was that there was NO way software emulation would be possible.  That, or we'd get performance about on par with VirtualPC for Mac!

And now I learn that you guys have to look at assembly code!  I'm no whiz in programming, but I know that has to be tough.  It really is too bad things couldn't have worked out better in the first generation to ensure correct IP (whatever, etc.) to have hardware emulation, but for the xbox to be 4 years old, and the PS2 6, I'm very impressed with what you guys have accomplished.  I'm still very much dedicated to Halo 2, but I can slowly start to feel myself move away towards a more well rounded 360 game experience.  Although the whole 60$ game thing is kind of a barrier :-)

Great article guys, despite the low number of comments, it's really great to get this kind of insight from the people who helped make it.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 6:40 AM by Narayan
A very good read for anyone that thinks BC is a simple matter when you don't have the hardware manufacturers in the palm of your hand.

Kudos to you, say I, for managing this kind of quality and optimization for software titles designed to run on one-generation old hardware.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 3:25 PM by masterman
i wish they would emulate street fighter anniversary collection so i can do some butt kicking on live thats the only reason why i bought live if i cant get this game working i guess i gotta look down hopefully thay can cause it doesnt seem very hard to emulate a small game like that but if they cant i understand atleast they are doing something

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 3:25 PM by masterman
i wish they would emulate street fighter anniversary collection so i can do some butt kicking on live thats the only reason why i bought live if i cant get this game working i guess i gotta look down hopefully thay can cause it doesnt seem very hard to emulate a small game like that but if they cant i understand atleast they are doing something

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 3:26 PM by masterman
i wish they would emulate street fighter anniversary collection so i can do some butt kicking on live thats the only reason why i bought live if i cant get this game working i guess i gotta look down hopefully thay can cause it doesnt seem very hard to emulate a small game like that but if they cant i understand atleast they are doing something

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 3:26 PM by masterman
i wish they would emulate street fighter anniversary collection so i can do some butt kicking on live thats the only reason why i bought live if i cant get this game working i guess i gotta look down hopefully thay can cause it doesnt seem very hard to emulate a small game like that but if they cant i understand atleast they are doing something.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 3:30 PM by masterman
hopefully street fighter AC will be emulated

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 3:35 PM by jmel
Hey, I just was curious about something to xboxfan...

Is there a main emulator "engine" with seperate "profiles' written for individual games? Or are all the "tweaks" made to the core engine, and that affects all games by itself?

- Thanks.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 3:38 PM by Andy
Why not just let all the games play, and have a list of compatible ones. Thats how just about every emulator works. How long are we going to have to wait for each of our favirate classics to be added to the list?

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 4:15 PM by Derek J. Nolan (DSmooth)
Was there ever the thought of, instead of emulating the XBox, to just recompile the .XBE's as native 360 code where the new executables would reside on the hard disk but access the remaining data from the disc?  Would that have even been possible?

Derek

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 4:18 PM by erexx
So far the only ones offering any "excuses" is the Xbox Team.

"I hope Sony doesn't alienate gamers based on an excuse like technical requirements."

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 4:33 PM by Marcelo Abans
Why didn't microsoft share this information from the start. It would have taken a lot of the concerns out of the backwards compatability issue. Up until this article I just couldn't understand why MS would go this route rather than what sony did with PS2. Good to hear. No I won't feel so bad buying a xbox360.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 4:33 PM by Number01
First off let me talk about the PS3, I believe at launch the PS3 will have more backwards supported titles then the 360.

Wouldnt the 360 have had more games compatible if it chose an x86 processor then a Power PC or wouldnt at least the emulation have run smoother?

There is a huge problem with ghosting on Halo 2. I have often times played and parts of the map get stuck on the screen and I cant see anything or it makes it hard to snipe. Can you guys pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeease fix this? Also the map Backwash has a really low framerate on the 360 and you guys should test a game there so you know what Im talking about (it sometimes feels like bad lag when everyones got a good connection).

How about building a new Xbox 1 thats half the size as the original and has Xbox Live Silver and Gold  and support for the 360 wireless controllers? If its going to be such a pain in the ass to emulate just make a smaller Xbox system like Sony does with their systems and sell people that. Or how about selling an Xbox 360 HDD that has the chips from the Xbox 1 built into them so that it improves the backwards compat?

Somehow I have a feeling that if you guys come out with a HDD you can do more then just provide larger storage but you can also improve loading times or emulation, and why isnt the 360 vision webcam wireless? I don't have a port for the webcam cause in the back is the Xbox 360 wireless adapter. Who thought of this product, you should tell them to cut the wire. I mean wireless would allow 4 people to use wireless webcams for some kinda game or 4 person chatting with 4 other people. I wouldnt care if the product was 100 dollars like other webcams that are wireless.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 5:11 PM by Spin
I think this is a great explanation of the BC process.  Hopefully enough people understand it but, from the small amount of comments I don't think they do so I have a feeling the same complaints will arise :(  However, I appreciate it and say keep up the good work :)

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 6:36 PM by runtime
A great article, very insightful - the kind of minds you need to have to bear down on the problem of BC is seriously awe-insipiring;  these folks are a rare breed!

It would be interesting to read a bit more about the time, how the many folks work there, how is it structured, who decides what gets worked on next (is that handed down from marketing or is it internal to the team)?   Most importantly, how do they keep sane staring hours upon hours at screens of assembler?!

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 6:57 PM by TJ
wow...thats a lot of work for one person. i was wondering why the list wasn't updated that often. a blog for the games currently being worked on would be cool...

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 7:12 PM by Matt S
Nice article, I sold my Xbox when I got the 360, but I kept PGR2, MX vs ATV Unleashed and Stranger's Wrath, hoping they might be BC. Guys, at least Stranger's wrath needs to work, its a classic! That can be your next game to add to the list :D

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 7:25 PM by Zygote
I appreciate the difficulty involved with this process. I only hope that both the Brother's in Arms and Mechassault series find their way to the 360 sometime this year :)

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 7:42 PM by N&X Fan
Is there a technical reason that Capcom's 2D fighters haven't been emulated yet while complex 3D shooters like Halo have?  

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 7:46 PM by N&X Fan
Is there a technical reason that Capcom's 2D fighters haven't been emulated yet while complex 3D shooters like Halo have?  Marvel vs Capcom 2 and Capcom vs SNK 2 are mostly underappreciated by the core Xbox audience, but I think they are some of the best in the Xbox lineup.  It'd be great to see them on the BC list.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 8:09 PM by Shawn
Well wouldnt even worry about it because there will be hopefully so many games being developed for the 360 that it should be great. I think that making a emulator for the 360 would be to expensive for what its worth and plus halo 2 is the only game xbox is popular for and what every xbox is used for constantly so yea i wouldt do it. My opinion what ever

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 8:47 PM by Haza55
Xbox emulation for the Xbox Team is a lot easier compared to free-lance coders. Because the Xbox Team has all the code for the kernel, all the drivers code and well they did(well most of them) work on the Xbox.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 9:53 PM by Raikkonen
Im sure gald that forza motorsports works now on my 360.

Now just give the guys at free60.org a little hint on how to run XBMC on the 360.  That way you guys dont create a monopoly by FORCING the users to use Window XP MCE!

Peace!

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 10:16 PM by Jim Ranney
Sence DICE has been bought out by the videogame industry distruction company known as EA I'd like to see Rallisport Challenge 2 and Midtown Madness 3 added to the BC list.

Especially sence Microsoft won't be releasing sequels to either one.  Thanks.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 10:17 PM by Jim Ranney
Sence DICE has been bought out by the videogame industry distruction company known as EA I'd like to see Rallisport Challenge 2 and Midtown Madness 3 added to the BC list.

Especially sence Microsoft won't be releasing sequels to either one.  Thanks.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 11:21 PM by atomnicdust
Quit it allready. I pay for an overpriced product to get minimal efficiency. You should have made the hardware play the games, like sony does. Stop coming out with lame excuses and saying this is cutting edge, we can emulate a few of our games..blah, blah. Cheap-asses quit crying because you gave the public a half finishined product. Instead of wasting your time trying to make these things work. You could have released the 360 at a later date once the BC list was at a healthier number, and issues with most games would have been resolved. Greed, it drives the gears of incompetence.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 05, 2006 11:38 PM by TestP
I understand how hard it is to emulate a system; however it was part of M$ merchandise around xbox360, so someone has to deal with it :-|
Nevertheless, I look foward to see Soul Calibur II in the b.c. list.

cheers

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Thursday, April 06, 2006 12:34 AM by Curtis Hutchings
Like to see Panzer Dragon Orta, Battlefront, MX Unleashed series, Soul Calibur II, and DOA series make the Backward Compatibility list.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Thursday, April 06, 2006 6:49 AM by Uxorious
When will the backward compatible games work with the vga cable? At present, no games work with the vga cable. Whenever I try an xbox game that is on the bc list my 360 tells me to change the screen resolution. But no resolution setting solves the problem. I hear it is to do with the update program requiring 50Hz. When will this be sorted.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Thursday, April 06, 2006 7:15 AM by Jim Ranney
3 games that should be added to the BC list sence Microsoft won't make 360 versions of them......Rallisport Challenge 2, Midtown Madness 3, and the game that should have had a sequel on Xbox....Links 2004.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Thursday, April 06, 2006 9:52 AM by The Reaper
xbox 360 did not live up to the hype and that half backward compatability is another downfall. Unfortunatly, PS3 will most likely dominate the 360, and possibly to the point that microsoft will not create another console. I like xbox 360, but it has nothing to say WOW! what a cool thing to have kinda feeling. I really would not have ever bought the 360 if I knew it sucked this bad. PS. games look exactly the same on a high def TV with xbox or 360. I HATE 360

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Thursday, April 06, 2006 10:47 AM by M Yussuf
Nice article. good read :)

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Thursday, April 06, 2006 10:54 AM by Travis Prebble
Sony has run into TRC limitations in the past that resulted in maybe 10-15 games not making it through their backwards compatibility changes.

At this time, the Xbox 360 is well over 1000 games short of fulfilling its BC promises.  While this will certainly change over time, it's probably best not to make snide remarks about the competition in this area of functionality.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Thursday, April 06, 2006 12:52 PM by BrianS
One thing I don't understand is...they should have the actual source code available to them. Microcoft is the company that writes the emulators for the 360. And before the game goes into production, it has to be certified (by Micrsoft). In order to do that, don't they need the code?

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Thursday, April 06, 2006 1:44 PM by mr slimmerthy
Emulation of xbox games seems to be quite a complex procedure. I guess the only way for it to be perfect would be to get external games testers who know the original versions of the game like the backs of their hands to play it through noting all the issues down, and as that would take a lot of time and money. I personally think that it'll never be perfect. when I first heard about it, I thought it would be easy to emulate. Just because the new console has the xbox label, it doesn't mean that it will have the same properties. I was hoping that steel battalion would be converted, but now I know that is just a dream. keep it up, we're all behind you!!

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Thursday, April 06, 2006 1:46 PM by JC
It's still kinda annoying that MS can't get the games to fully work , ninja gaiden worked perfect before and now the march update has robbed the gameof sound

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Thursday, April 06, 2006 6:09 PM by djjsin
Thats great and all, my problem is more with how Microsoft (mainly the marketing side) is talking about the Backwards Compatibility like it works perfectly, using it as a selling point for the system, then I bought the system, all these problems started to arise.  All top games, Ninja Gaiden, Forza, Halo 2, Fable all had problems.  I would have also thought that once the 360 was decided to be Backwards Compatible, then all future games from that point on, would be certified for the xbox 360 emulator and the xbox, and microsoft could work with a company at the time of development, to make sure it ran fine on the emulator.

I just feel really mislead in regards to this.  Halo 2 is a perfect example.  It STILL doesnt work right.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Friday, April 07, 2006 10:24 AM by MArc
Excellent read.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Friday, April 07, 2006 3:36 PM by Kryztoval
If this is a technical article I'll feel sorry to inform you that what is stated in the article is obvious to technical people. Which path is the PS3 Followin is going to be breathtaking to say the least (as breath taking as not having backwards compatibility). I sure was hoping to see backwards and fordware compatibility! Did i ever expect the xbox360 disc to contain both, xbox360 and xbox games versions, and let the console decide which one to play? yeah I did, and I felt impressed by the difficulty and expertise doing such a thing would demand, just to name a few: devising a way to let the original xbox read the game disc, and doing, a completely different way to allow the xbox 360 read the disc also, allowing shared content on the dvd for both systems, mixing textures and making availible the texture definitions, etc). I am still waiting for that to be posible... not having to pay twice for a game and being able to play it on both (sacrificing only the quality of the graphics) would have been something without precedents... and really challenging shall I reafirm.

And not including games but also not letting know people about what made this console great (online content, downloadable demos, backward compatibility kindof) is a hurtful fault in mexico. I assume you may get more sales if you could manage that, please do place the xbox360 comercials on market place!!! they rock.

.-Kryz

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Friday, April 07, 2006 4:30 PM by colin mcrae
Thanks for all the technical background on the BC effort underway!   Sounds crazy.

Now, how about MY RSC-2, please!   Its a MSG game, its one heck of a game and it looks sharp as ever even on the OG box.

I am sure begging you doesn't help much, so let me know if bribes would work any better!  

Just kidding, well sort of.  Is there any time table (estimate even) when the next round of games will be added to the list.  There is next round, right!  

Thanks for all your mud, sweat and gears!    

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Friday, April 07, 2006 6:21 PM by Brad
Excellent article!  It's very interesting to look at what all you guys (or girls) have to work through to bring these BC games to the public.  Thank you for all of your hard work, and please pass on my compliments to the BC team for adding Black to the list!

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Saturday, April 08, 2006 11:26 AM by benpro
we need serious sam 1 & 2 emulation

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Saturday, April 08, 2006 11:51 PM by The Hedon
After reading that, it seems that debugging is a big issue, especially if they don't have the source code. I would then tend to think it should be easy to get all the MSG (Microsoft Game Studios) games onto the Xbox...such as all the XSN sports games, etc.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Sunday, April 09, 2006 10:02 PM by SCS 85
Good read.  Damn, it seems like a very difficult task to emulate Xbox games on Xbox 360, I'm amazed they have over 200 BC games right now.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Monday, April 10, 2006 8:33 AM by Kilik
Why isn't the compability list the same for all regions (ie. a european version of a game is working, but not the american version and vice versa)?

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 12, 2006 11:03 PM by Phil Hess
Good stuff =).  I know it's hard work and I'm hoping you are able to make some monumental strides.  Not sure if this helps at all, but Cisco has made emulators for their routers and I believe that they look at designing the emulator based more on looking at the hardware rather than trying to decode the existing software.  I'm not a developer and I'm sure you've thought about this, but it just seems more logical to focus more efforts on making a pure hardware emulator (via software) than attempting to work each title's issues individually.  I maybe totally wrong, but sometimes it's the simple suggestions that make milestones =).

Just got my XBox today and getting ready to dig into it when I get home.  Now that PGR3 is out, do you think the PGR2 developers might be able to help you guys on BC for it?

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, April 18, 2006 9:59 PM by Samus
In my opinion, some of the more popular games that should be checked for backwards compatibility include morrowind, and DDR. I also think that Nightcaster is a good game to look up on too!

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Friday, April 21, 2006 8:49 AM by Maximo Piva
Instead of using an emulator, why not create some porting libraries and recompile the original xbox game source code, into the xbox 360 xdk. In this way you will have a native PPC application and also the original game developer can add extra features. You will only need to download the new executable from xbox live....

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Friday, April 21, 2006 9:27 AM by Ipax85
This article was great and there was more info about emulating than i would need... But i'd like to know more about games that will be or never be at BC.. Like Outrun2, Sega Gt Online & Taito Legends 1 & 2. ^^) *You rule*

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Friday, April 21, 2006 5:48 PM by sasha
i still dont understand how to play old games on the xbox 360

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Monday, April 24, 2006 7:13 PM by carlos torres
i hope to play doom gladius or warriors thats the only reason i got my xbox still plugged in

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Friday, May 05, 2006 4:23 PM by Trevis Wright
Please, Please, Please can yall try your hardess to get NBA Ballers Phenom to play on the XBOX 360 for me. I'm begging you. Thanks

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Friday, May 05, 2006 4:24 PM by Trevis Wright
Please, Please, Please can yall try your hardess to get NBA Ballers Phenom to play on the XBOX 360 for me. I'm begging you. Thanks

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, May 09, 2006 3:25 AM by Nick
Just recently i got Doom 3, Hitman 2 and RalliSport Challenge with hope that they worked on my 360 but they dident so i was just wondering if these games are going to be eventually playable and if there is a list of the games that are going to be put in.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Friday, May 12, 2006 6:47 AM by chris
i need to know the MEASUREMENTS!

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Friday, May 12, 2006 11:38 AM by Gavin Horricks
An update on how things are going would be good.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Thursday, May 25, 2006 4:05 AM by link0007
ow I so hope that morrowind is backward compatible soon :(
and also, (this is a real n00b question, I know )if you emulate, why is it imposible to make the game believe that it's running on a normal Xbox, while using the full performance of the Xbox 360?

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, May 31, 2006 1:15 PM by Crunchy
A bit rich having a dig at Sony at the end there with regard to possibly alienating gamers with the excuse of technical requirements because the entire article above is one long excuse on that exact theme. There is absolutely no viable excuse for the lack of the backward compatibility we were promised when we bought the 360. The resources available to microsoft are massive beyond belief and if they had any respect for their customers they would be getting stuck into the BC issue with everything they have. The fact is Microsoft greed means no worthwhile BC because they fear it's impact on next gen sales. We're seeing the same thing on XBLA, nothing happening because of oure greed.  

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, May 31, 2006 4:29 PM by Matt
Thanks for the insight guys. Would be great if Morrowind could be ported some day.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Friday, June 02, 2006 4:02 PM by Balls
No one is saying that implementing BC via software is trivial.

We (the xbox gaming community) just wants you (the Xbox Team) to understand that when BC is mentioned as a selling point, we expect you to deliver on your promise. Maybe it was another Marketing not having a clue what was going on, but when I hear B.C. I expect my games to work.

Would you be upset if it turns out that HD-DVD players can only play a subset of original DVDs after being told that HD

"I hope Sony doesn't alienate gamers based on an excuse like technical requirements."

I hope Xbox360 doesn't alienate gamers based on an excuse like software emulation is too hard.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Monday, June 05, 2006 6:44 PM by Marty Barrett
Well, I understand everything about the backwards compatibility, but the question that I wanted to ask is "why has there been a price drop on the xbox 360 yet? The price is fair, but from what I hear, there is going to be no price drop planned any time soon. The 360 is a great piece of technology, but it has been out for quite a while. I am not trying to criticize anything about the way the company works, (being that I would much rather have an xbox 360 than a PS3 or Nintendo Revolution and I have trusted Microsoft ever since the XBOX was announced) it was just a question that was bothering me. You may contact me at UrGirlfrndDigsMe@aol.com, please do.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Monday, June 05, 2006 10:04 PM by dan
couldnt you just use a flash firmware update and have one of the cores act as an emulator to make the games *think they are in an xbox?* by this i mean the games would play and whenever they used things such as graphics and networking, the core would have it work as it should in an xbox?

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, June 06, 2006 12:10 AM by Scott
They took the easy way out - looks like they are just putting a PS2 chipset inside the PS3.  

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, June 06, 2006 1:19 AM by good info...
Having written a couple emulators myself, I knew this would be a difficult task. But yet, with MS walking away from the Xbox 180 so rapidly, they have little choice.

Still irked that Forza Motorsport is listed as working when the frame rate drops to less than 6fps driving down the Esses at Road Atlanta. Forza was no performance wonder on Xbox, but it didn't do this badly.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:43 PM by Mike Rayl
I have the more expensive version of the 360 and bought a current BC disk from Microsoft. I put the disk in and downloaded what was on the disk. I've tried to play 'Fable', 'Forza Motorsports'. The are on the current list, but when I try to play them, an error message pops up "This game is not compatable with this system." Does anyone know what I am doing wrong?

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:39 AM by S. Johnson
Anyone know if Dead or Alive Ultimate is going to be BC with the 360? I noticed that DOA 3 is and can only assume that eventually this will be as well. Anyone got any info on this game yet?

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Friday, August 04, 2006 4:42 AM by * Cobsta *
I regularly check the backwards compatibility list on the official XBOX site and I am constantly disappointed to see that none of the Burnout games have made it on there. Does anybody know if they will make it to the list?

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Thursday, August 10, 2006 1:19 PM by Daniel Brennan
    Great article, and one that I can agree with based on my own experience with emulation and technology in general.  I am especially familiar with the problem of figuring out code that I did not write.  It is always much easier when I have the developer to speak with.  This begs the question?  Should it not be easier for games developed by Microsoft to be emulated?  I do understand that there are sometimes engineering issues which seem to require the original hardware, but these are rare.  I'll just use one example here.  MS Links.  As one of the best golf simulations that I have played, this is one game that I continue to enjoy on my original Xbox as well as my PC.  It would be nice, however, if I could play it on the 360 with the 360 controller without going to the side room that I retired my Xbox 1 to.  So what gives?  Microsoft game,  Microsoft developers, Microsoft emulation team, no emulation for Links.  It does not make a lot of sense to me.  Additionally, are there not guidelines that you could send to developers for the original xbox (I know there are hardly any left now) so that all new Xbox 1 games could be more efficiently emulated?

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Monday, August 28, 2006 11:02 AM by Michael Nebel
I think that you guys are awesome. Keep up the good work. I am always check the backwards compatibility page to see whats new. (I can't wait for Midtown Madness 3) Again keep up the good work. (^_^)

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Monday, August 28, 2006 11:48 PM by William
Anyone have a message on the 360 with Forza Motorsport saying"The disc you are using may be dirty or damaged". I had this problem with several used discs, one of which actually worked for a couple hours. I have downloaded the updates, and the game itself updated while I was on xbox live. Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, August 30, 2006 1:58 PM by Stacson Chinaka
My games wont work from xbox to 360

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Saturday, September 02, 2006 1:09 PM by michael
i think that any game rfom xbox would easley be put on the xbox 360 if one are to is put it would easley be put on others as well you just do'nt care about trying even so that all the that buy the consoles suplys for spend so much money you can do them that?if it was me i would make sure it worked one way or another.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Sunday, September 03, 2006 1:14 PM by Jeremy
Please try to make americas army: rise of a solder compatible on the xbox 360

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Saturday, September 09, 2006 12:20 AM by tretre
Why in the name of the Great pumpkin is Morrowind not backward compatible!!!!!!!

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Friday, September 15, 2006 6:23 PM by alexlexus
Will street fighter 3, capcom vs snk 2, and guilty gear xx reload be making it to the list? my xbox just broke and i can no longer play on live. this is really a bad time fore me sicen doa 4 is the only online fighter out.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Sunday, September 17, 2006 10:03 PM by Brent
NCAA Football 07,06,05 PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!! NCAA Football for Xbox 360 is terrible and you guys know it! Make 07 Backwards compatible!!!!

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Thursday, September 21, 2006 3:21 PM by Richard
Morrowind? Please, please, please. So many people want to see this game made backwardly compatibile. It needn't even be the GOTY edition.... I miss that game soooo much.....

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, October 04, 2006 9:53 AM by BEN Pro
Please, please, make Soldier of Fortune 2 , Serious Sam 2 , Doom3 Resurrection of Evil and sufferring 2 backwards compatible

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 5:37 PM by Jon

The only reason i haven't got the Xbox 360 yet is space i cant create space without selling my old trusty Xbox and i cant do that unless i can keep playing Jet Set Radio Future and Shenmue Please put them on your to do list

Thanks

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, October 18, 2006 2:10 PM by Sam Strung

Soul Calibur 2 for the Xbox. That's all we want.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Monday, October 23, 2006 12:34 AM by lee

please make doom 3 resurrection of evil, unreal championship 2 the liandri conflict, the elder scrolls 3 morrowind game of the year edition, midnight club 3 dub edition remix, conker live and reloaded, the chronicles of rdddick escape from butcher bay, dead or alive ultimate 1&2, dead or alive xtreme beach volleyball, backwards compatible

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Sunday, October 29, 2006 11:46 AM by Pablo 360

I would like that Microsoft finally get the backward compatibility with Mortal Kombat games, and Capcom games such Capcom vs Snk EO, Capcom Classic Collection or Street Fighter Aniversary Collection. ThankS

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Saturday, November 04, 2006 5:06 PM by White Wraith

Why do you people keep bitching? Their doing the best they can with the resources avalible. Since you people complain so much, you should try to do it yourself. Eventualy most of the games will be compatible, so keep your pants on!

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Saturday, November 04, 2006 8:25 PM by James

Snide remarks about the competition are not appreciated when Microsoft themselves can only port a few hundread titles out of thousands.  At least when Sony released their second console (PS2) they kept their promise about BC. Microsoft has yet to live up to their word.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Monday, November 06, 2006 11:31 AM by iRey

Hey people, Dead or Alive Extreme 2 is hitting our lovely console soon.. I think it's about time Dead or Alive Extreme Beach Volleyball gets a Backwards Compatible patch.

Please.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Friday, November 24, 2006 9:42 PM by jjensen2000

Of the five retailers that sell xbox 360 in this area, all without exception stated with absolute certainty that all the xbox series game titles would run on the xbox 360.  I was one of those consumers that believed those statements and purchased the 360 along with 3 games that did not work. I think that the incorrect information offered at the retail level is a bigger issue that actually delivering on those promises of backwards compatability.  Finding out after I have purchased this unit that the long list of playable games is not long, that even the games packaged with the unit are nonfunctional is most disappointing to say the least.  However I have already spent the money, already opened the package, already talked to support, already been dissapointed, and there is no fix for that.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Sunday, November 26, 2006 1:42 AM by jessie

can any please email me what normal compatible xbox can be play on xbox 360 i really need to now my email is xbox360_1988@yahoo.com.au please email if you know

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, November 28, 2006 5:22 PM by Ryan Hinman

I've been dieing for them to make The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind, Prince of Persia: The Two Thrones both backwards compatible. I've heard that The BC team is on vacation until januray and there won't be another update until march. anyone know any more info about this

Thanks

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Sunday, December 17, 2006 10:26 AM by Todd Casey

I love the Legacy of Kain series and am hoping you can put Legacy of Kain Defiance on your list

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Sunday, December 24, 2006 11:52 AM by Will K.

Yeah it may be hard but we're talking about Microsoft. Throw more programmers at the problem and get more games supported! There are way fewer titles on the compatibility list then there should be.  

Pleaaaase include Godzilla Save The Earth! There is no Godzilla game for the 360!!

Morrowind definately too.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Friday, December 29, 2006 9:33 PM by allan pederson

dont care. I just want to be able to download the damn file with out having to have the geek squad looking over my shoulder..

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Monday, January 08, 2007 8:19 AM by DFHT

Please convert Strangers wrath!

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Saturday, February 10, 2007 5:28 AM by Bloody Lancelot

Bloodrayne 1&2 !!! It's a must !!! And the Matrix Path of Neo too !!! Please create a patch for these games !!!

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Monday, February 19, 2007 8:40 AM by Jeff B

Would love to see either of the Godzilla games, added to the list.

Thanks....

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Monday, February 19, 2007 11:38 PM by Craig

Will they be making colin mcrae 5 compatible for the 360 , ive been waiting for ages and i still cant play it

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Saturday, February 24, 2007 7:40 PM by Josh

Please make sure Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind Backwards compatible, I have been waiting forever.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Saturday, March 10, 2007 11:26 PM by Darryl

Exteremly disappointed with the Backwards compatibilty project to date.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Monday, March 19, 2007 10:56 AM by Nick

i would like to see Ncaa March Madness 2006 backward compatible i love that game and i don't like the the Ncaa games or college hoops at all

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Thursday, March 29, 2007 3:45 AM by hey

MAKE PATH OF NEO BC PLZZZ I BEG YOU!!!  WWWAAAAAHHHH!!!!   BOOOHOOOHOOO!!!!  -_-............................

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, April 03, 2007 2:28 AM by Mike

PLEASE!!!, I would also like to see Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind backwards compatible ^_^

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 04, 2007 9:58 PM by Austin

I really hope they do Elder Scrolls 3 as well. Although I can see why it would take so long.  It has a lot different engine then most games.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Saturday, April 07, 2007 1:11 AM by omar

what the XBOX360 should hav is an intel dual core 2 duo

just like uR home pc or even the latest apple cpu's; not a power pc which apple hav rejected & hav come to relise that intel maybe the way to go.

so u guy's bring out the XBOX360 Elite but whats the point when u still hav2get an external HD-DVD player u know the PS3 can play HD-DVD's not2mention blu-ray come on guy's i never had a PS but im starting to think of switching2sony guy's seriously u got2get with the times or u just might lose some serious gamers

when will u guy's b making all the xbox shooter's & racer's backwards compatible like:

MIDNIGHT CLUB 3 DUB EDITION REMIX

V8 SUPERCARS 3 (TOCA RACE DRIVER 3)

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Saturday, April 07, 2007 2:47 PM by Jonathan

why is mercenaries playground of destruction not on te backwards compatability list?? barbie and buffy are on there are you kidding me

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Friday, April 13, 2007 3:38 AM by economics

All you guys complaining that "xbox took the easy way out" by not just doing what playstation did and putting the original xbox chipset into the 360 have need to understand something called economics.  If they were to put the chipset from the original xbox they would have to pay the manufacturers of said chipsets millions of dollars (because, like he explained, unlike the playstation they weren't built in house) this could have driven the cost of building the 360 up to a point where Microsoft wouldn't have built it at all.

Also, rather than focusing on the fact that the 360 doesn't play as many old games as the ps3, why don't you focus on the fact that all of the new games that have come out for the ps3 suck, while the 360 has a solid enjoyable line up.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Monday, April 16, 2007 7:27 AM by ...

Stupore! Amo questo luogo!:)))))))

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Thursday, April 19, 2007 2:25 PM by Ryan

Since it has been a while since the last backward compatible update I was wondering if this project is still alive and when the next update will be. I think they should still try to get all games backward compatible. I still have a few that are not on the list and I can't decide to trade them in for a few bucks each or keep waiting. Maybe the next update will be in May at the same time they update xbox360 dashboard!!

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:28 PM by TuRk

Morrowinds Elder Scrolls should be backwards compatible by now if any game was going to be backwards compatible it was not only a game of the year both on pc launch and xbox launch but as a platinum hit for xbox as well. Get it together man because honestly i find some of the titles that are backwards compatible not only ludacris to waste time on but were not very good games at all. Hopefully you guys will come thru for the millions wating on this one game.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Tuesday, April 24, 2007 9:46 PM by BEN Pro

WE NEED EMULATION FOR: Soldier of fortune II double helix

                                          Serious Sam 2

                                          Doom III Resurrection of Evil

                                          Painkiller

                                          The Sufferring II

PLEASE PLEASE

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, April 25, 2007 8:37 AM by Kaddan

Intresting read! I hope they make shenmue 2 backwards compat for the 360, Im frigging dying to play this game as the first one is one of the best games ive every played even tho ive played most 360 games Non measure up to shenmue imo. I think it wud be a wise move to make shenmue 2 backwards compat for the 360. I know alot of people who have played n loved the first, and Not gotten the chance to play the second, as they either traded in or had their old xbox's sold rdy for the 360 release!

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 7:33 AM by BEN Pro

Please, please, make Soldier of Fortune 2 , Serious Sam 2 , Doom3 Resurrection of Evil and sufferring 2 backwards compatible

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, May 02, 2007 10:48 AM by Hak

Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind is a must see on the backwards compatibility list!   I personally wouldnt mind seeing Shattered Union as well.  

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Saturday, May 05, 2007 11:18 AM by Phil

TES III: Morrowind..... I've been waiting way too long for that.

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 9:51 AM by Laurence

Any news on when there will be a patch on the xbox 360 for Taito Legends ??

# re: On Backwards Compatibility

Wednesday, May 09, 2007 9:56 AM by Laurence

I know this is off the topic of Backwards Compatibility , but I'll like to see games the Resident Evil series on the xbox.

Anonymous comments are disabled
 
Page view tracker