Typed XML programmer -- Welcome to LINQ!

Grammarware, Haskellware, XMLware : Table of contents for ???Typed XML programmer??? series

Tue, 28 Nov 2006 05:09:15 GMT

PingBack from http://blogs.msdn.com/ralflammel/archive/2006/11/13/table-of-contents-for-typed-xml-programmer-series.aspx

re: Typed XML programmer -- Welcome to LINQ!

kfarmer — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 05:48:33 GMT

Woo hoo! I wondered when y'all were going to post this. :)

Linq to XSD releases Alpha today

Kavitak's WebLog — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 09:50:21 GMT

A month ago I was investigating authoring WF rules against XML. We dont support it out of the box, but

[.NET] La première preview de Linq To XSD est disponible....

Thomas Lebrun — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:02:12 GMT

Voici un nouveau venu dans la famille " Linq To .... " qui risque de plaire à pas mal de développeurs

LINQ to XSD Preview

Ido Samuelson's blog — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:12:30 GMT

After working sometime with LINQ this becomes quite a missing feature. This will make my life way easier

re: Typed XML programmer -- Welcome to LINQ!

Ido Samuelson — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 12:17:05 GMT

I was waiting for this! :)

re: Typed XML programmer -- Welcome to LINQ!

MKane91301 — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:46:01 GMT

Not to be ungrateful, but I'm a little disappointed that "typed" XML programming is only putting a typed wrapper around raw XML. I'm not quite satisfied with setters and getters on numeric properties having to format and parse strings every time. What I really want is XML objects that store the data according to the XSD type and when using XmlReader and XmlWriter call the appropriate strongly-typed methods, so strongly-typed data can be copied from one XML object to another via XmlReader or XmlWriter without formatting, parsing, or even boxing.

New and Notable 129

Sam Gentile — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 21:34:33 GMT

Workflow/BPM/WCF/SOA David Chappell presents arguments both pro and con as to whether Microsoft qualifies

re: Typed XML programmer -- Welcome to LINQ!

XmlTeam — Tue, 28 Nov 2006 22:08:16 GMT

Hi MKane91301,

thanks for your reflection. When you say that you are a little disappointed because typed XML programming is *only* [my emphasis] putting a typed wrapper around raw XML, then you seem to focus on *performance*, which is important, but it is not the only dimension we need to keep an eye on. The wrapper approach has the distinguished advantage of reusing existing LINQ to XML objects, as is, and keeping them in tact. This is an extremely valuable feature in a setting where we assume that people mostly use LINQ (LINQ to XML) and occasionally (hopefully often) want to create typed views w/o disturbing the application context of these XML trees. One can try to use caching to get the best of both worlds. However, this is a sort of wormhole I should blog about in all detail some day.

Also, a big problem, IMHO, with the approach that stores *parts* of trees or just values in plain fields (as you seem to ponder about) is that this leads eventually to the lossiness and complexity of serialization approaches.

Your feedback is very appreciated.

Thanks,

Ralf Laemmel

re: Typed XML programmer -- Welcome to LINQ!

rad9k — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 00:54:28 GMT

why generated classes are not partial ?

(or they are but in l2xsd_overview.doc they are not in exapmle ;p)

re: Typed XML programmer -- Welcome to LINQ!

XmlTeam — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 00:59:54 GMT

Hi rad9k,

sure the generated classes are partial (and public). The pseudo code in the overview doc favored to elide these modifiers, but this may be debatable as I sense from your email.

Thanks,

Ralf

Language engineering is the future

Grammarware, Haskellware, XMLware — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 05:10:09 GMT

Now that I kicked off LINQ to XSD (a piece of XMLware), it’s time to rest and think about IT and entropy

LINQ to XSD 프리뷰(알파버젼)

bkchung's WebLog — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 08:43:32 GMT

Microsoft XML Team's WebLog : Typed XML programmer -- Welcome to LINQ! Download details LINQ to XSD LINQ를

re: Typed XML programmer -- Welcome to LINQ!

george moudry — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 13:39:58 GMT

How is Linq-to-XSD different from generating classes via xsd.exe, loading these typed objects into memory via XmlSerializer, and then running plain Linq on in-memory objects?

Thanks - George

LINQ: nuova libreria dal team Microsoft XML: LINQ to XSD

Ferracchiati's italian blog — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:11:48 GMT

re: Typed XML programmer -- Welcome to LINQ!

rad9k — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 16:29:02 GMT

Georges question is something that probably many people have in mind

We had some articles on this topic here in xml team blog, but of course it will be interesting to get back to this subject ;ppp

For sure l2xsd have two advantages:

- generated classes inherit from XElement ; so they are interopable with rest of xlinq infrastructure. What doest that mean? Generated classes can be treated generlicly as untyped xml

- generated classes are doing some sort of xsd-based constraints checks when making modifications. I had not looked at generated code (performance overhead ? can those constrains checks be turned off & on by some document/element scope ?) but it seems that there is something like this

anything more ?

re: Typed XML programmer -- Welcome to LINQ!

rad9k — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 16:53:59 GMT

hmm and besides there is some quite important subject

XML INDEXING for querying ;p

As far as I know in System.Xml & in xlinq there is no xml indexing at all

As such indexing needs some way to specify what subelements/attributes should be indexed it is nice to get back to this topic while working with xsd. Maybe some sort of “indexthis” annotations in xsd ?

Some might say “indexing is for databases”. Yes it is. But now ram is big enough to work with so called “in memory” databases. So instead of using sql server xml indexing we might have linq based in memory xml database. We need two things:

- indexing. As mentioned above

- disk written change log. This could be embedded in generated setters methods

Of course some transaction support and locking will be nice, but those two are quite a lot ;p

And Of course same for linq2objects. We need indexes supporting collections with index aware IQueryable implementations. It is A MUST

LINQ to XSD - Working with Typed XML

LINQed IN - Troy Magennis' View on .NET, C# and Software Development — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 22:24:34 GMT

LINQ to XSD has been released in alpha form by the XML team, and they are requesting feedback. You can...

re: Typed XML programmer -- Welcome to LINQ!

XmlTeam — Wed, 29 Nov 2006 23:28:47 GMT

Hey I like the way how people end up saying l2xsd instead of LINQ to XSD.

I saw some interesting questions.

Re: "differences xsd.exe vs. l2xsd". I should be careful in comparing actual platform technology (xsd.exe) with an incubation project (l2xsd). So let's try to focus on high-level conceptual and hopefully timeless issues -- also understanding that l2xsd is a moving target (and your feedback is critically wanted). Please also check out the “Typed XML Programmer” series on the team blog, as it is going into some of this in quite some detail; see index here http://blogs.msdn.com/ralflammel/archive/2006/11/13/table-of-contents-for-typed-xml-programmer-series.aspx and then there is also the long version : see the booklet “Revealing the X/O impedance mismatch” on my website. So the exec summary, IMHO, goes here: with a de-/serialization-based technology (such as xsd.exe) you escape from XML semantics (fidelity, query model, tree representation, …) to simple stateful objects. With a native XML technology like LINQ to XSD you get a richer and cleaner programming model because you stay within the XML semantics. You are not going to be surprised by round-tripping issues resulting from shredding issues in turn. You can walk your parent, siblings, etc. You do not need to serialize (materialize!) an object graph that is then orphaned (offline) from the XML underneath. And so on …

These are deep semantical and conceptual differences I wouldn’t want to glance over. Now, does a business programmer bother? This depends on the complexity of the XML and schemas, on the requirements for XML fidelity, on the appreciation of the LINQ to XML query model, on the overall question whether schema-first is relevant enough for us to work on a technology for it. I am just writing up the XML 2006 paper on l2xsd which I will post here within weeks – I make sure to cover this sort of question in some depth. As to performance, this topic also deserves separate treatise. One way to think of it is this: suppose we have a LINQ to XML tree in memory, then what is the cost of creating the typed view in a demand-driven way? Ideally, *those* costs are pretty small. There is so many tricks you can play, but not necessarily in an incubation project that we use to gather all sorts of feedback, primarily related to the programming model.

BTW, yes, l2xsd classes could inherit from XElement but they rather *wrap* XElement since the pragmatics work out better that way. In particular, you don’t need to know the precise l2xsd type when the XML trees gets created but only once you want to view through typed glasses.

And yes ,l2xsd classes do check for simple-type restrictions and other constraints (see the Readme and the docs for limitations and open issues), but this is nothing that a serialization-based approach would be intrinsically incapable of. However, it is worth noting that this constraint checking business gets us intrinsically away from a field-based model. So we need ADTs really. This is what l2xsd takes to the next level by saying not even the state of the XML objects resides in the typed view, but the typed access properties directly access the ultimate XML state of LINQ to XML trees.

Thanks,

Ralf Lammel

LINQ to XSD - Working with Typed XML

LINQed IN - Troy Magennis' View on .NET, C# and Software Development — Fri, 01 Dec 2006 05:28:49 GMT

LINQ to XSD has been released in alpha form by the XML team, and they are requesting feedback. You can...

re: Typed XML programmer -- Welcome to LINQ!

Ed Plunkett — Sat, 02 Dec 2006 00:09:51 GMT

Hi, do you guys support recursive element definitions in XSD? If so, how? Is it documented anywhere?

I've found it documented all over as supposedly possible in XSD, with numerous examples, but the .NET 2.0 XML parser barfs and claims the element is "not declared". I can do it with something resembling a forward declaration (found that in the sqlxml docs), but then of course the "children" aren't validated at all.

re: Typed XML programmer -- Welcome to LINQ!

XmlTeam — Sat, 02 Dec 2006 13:22:57 GMT

Ed Plunkett,

if you mean (mutually or directly) recursive element *declarations*, yep, of course, this is covered by XSD and so it is by LINQ to XSD. Not sure that I understand what XML APIs you are having problems with. Please send me a repro, if you like, ralfla@microsoft.com. I should be able to forward it as appropriate.

Thanks,

Ralf Laemmel

LINQ to XSD - First Project

LINQed IN - Troy Magennis' View on .NET, C# and Software Development — Thu, 07 Dec 2006 00:04:42 GMT

I downloaded the LINQ to XSD alpha preview. After reading the disclaimer multiple times (it seems Microsoft...

re: Typed XML programmer -- Welcome to LINQ!

Roger Jennings — Fri, 08 Dec 2006 18:49:15 GMT

DonXML says (referring to PLinq): "Overall, this stuff looks very cool. And it seems that LINQ is going to be a big part of how they plan to implement it, giving me even more of a reason to get going on LINQ before all the cool kids realize that WPF, WCF and WF are yesterday's news, and LINQ is where it is at ;)"

The same applies to LINQ for XSD. See http://oakleafblog.blogspot.com/2006/12/reduce-objectxml-impedance-mismatch.html.

--rj

Generalized vs. dynamic interfaces

Grammarware, Haskellware, XMLware — Sat, 23 Dec 2006 04:27:45 GMT

In a comment on “ More Haskell in Java 7 or 8? ”, I get this question “How does your `Retroactive Interface

Convergence Zones

mikechampion's weblog — Fri, 12 Jan 2007 23:38:01 GMT

I had a lot of time to think about Elliotte Harold's call for XML predictions on the way home from Redmond

LINQ to XSD - Typed XML programming with LINQ

Fabrice's weblog — Mon, 15 Jan 2007 21:45:17 GMT

I haven't written about LINQ to XSD yet on this blog. So, here goes... LINQ to XML has been revealed

LINQ to XSD - Typed XML programming with LINQ

Linq in Action News — Mon, 15 Jan 2007 21:50:25 GMT

I haven't written about LINQ to XSD yet on this blog. So, here goes... LINQ to XML has been revealed

New and Notable 136

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Architecture More competition! No, I am very glad to see my good friend and Architect Harry start a series

LINQ To XML: Integración de XML!

Blog del CIIN — Wed, 07 Mar 2007 19:50:45 GMT

Como no podía ser de otra forma, y después de hablar de las bases de LINQ y de LINQ To SQL , desde el

field interest

踏雪无痕 — Mon, 19 Mar 2007 19:06:22 GMT

x/omappingxmldatabindinglinqhttp://blogs.msdn.com/xmlteam/archive/2006/11/27/typed-xml-programme...

.Net Entity Framework Slips and My Quotes in Redmond Developer News

DonXml's All Things Techie — Tue, 01 May 2007 13:15:43 GMT

Kathleen Richards, from Redmond Developer News, gave me a call yesterday asking my thoughts on the news

Two important LINQ implementations: LINQ to XSD and LINQ to SharePoint

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There are two very important LINQ implementations to keep your eye on as we near the release of Visual...

New and Notable 129

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Workflow/BPM/WCF/SOA David Chappell presents arguments both pro and con as to whether Microsoft qualifies

www

www — Sun, 27 Jan 2008 12:29:20 GMT

www website website http http://silviaolmeda.bz.tc/ www

Congratulations to a Couple of Cool People

Eric White's Blog — Wed, 17 Sep 2008 05:13:49 GMT

When I was writing the LINQ to XML documentation , Ralf Lämmel was the program manager for LINQ to XSD

LINQ to ...

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LINQ to ...

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Офіційні: LINQ to SQL (DLINQ) LINQ to XML (XLINQ) LINQ to XSD LINQ to Entities BLINQ PLINQ Неофіційні

New and Notable 136

Sam Gentile If (DeveloperTask==Communication && OS==Windows) — Fri, 21 Nov 2008 23:40:46 GMT

Architecture More competition! No, I am very glad to see my good friend and Architect Harry start a series

New and Notable 136

Sam Gentile's Blog — Wed, 03 Dec 2008 18:28:02 GMT

Architecture More competition! No, I am very glad to see my good friend and Architect Harry start a series like mine and Mike's with his Morning Coffee 10 . I'm going to have to quicken the pace-) Software Development/Tools JetBrains has released their